Do I need school to be...

a product designer? with Kristiyan Dyankov

December 21, 2021 Alex Villacís Season 1 Episode 21
Do I need school to be...
a product designer? with Kristiyan Dyankov
Show Notes Transcript

This is the last episode before a bit of a holiday break (it’s called self-care) and to close this first section of the podcast we are having a beer and talking to Kristian Dyankov, a product designer from Bulgaria currently living, working and growing in Rotterdam. A close personal friend of mind, I’m excited to bring you some insight into Kris’ journey. 

On this interview we spoke about:

  • Kris's experience at 3 different formal institutions
  • His time working in sales in a language he had not yet mastered
  • Learning from others
  • Working across silos, designers+scientists

Want to learn more about Kris? You should because he is awesome so here are some links:
Website
Linkedin
Instagram
Kris’ book recommendation ‘The Win Without Pitching Manifesto

In an effort to make this podcast accessible, we make transcripts of every episode. You’ll find the transcripts on our website here, https://doineedschooltobe.buzzsprout.com

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Kris Dyankov:

For different aspects, there are different teachers that I had through diamond, for example, some days but all the way back to my high school. Others are very recent ones. Like, for example, one of the teachers we had the most ISAC. I think he's the the person that always reminds me of discipline.

Alex Villacis:

Hello, friend and welcome back to another episode of do I need school to be the podcast in which we Alex is going to sit down with creatives and ask them about their journey into the creative field focusing on their education, the teachers who shaped them, the boxer shaped in the movies, in general what their journey was like. If you're somebody who is thinking about entering the creative field, I hope this show will be a resource to you and show you that we all have different paths, and they are all valid. So let's go. And we've made it to the last episode of 2021. It's also episode 21. The last episode I recorded live at Willem de Kooning Academy where I got to do an auto residency if you want to learn more about that go to the episode of Naomi Johnson because she's the person who organised the auto residency, which was a great programme, I had a lot of fun. So in this episode, I'm actually met up with Chris live at school to talk about his journey into design. We talk about a lot of things we talk about the different teachers that you can have his journey working as a salesman at Eataly, not knowing how to speak Italian, but still working in sales, which I think is really interesting. And then how he looks at design and his perspective on the entire educational system that cites a really fun conversation. A very interesting one. We were having fun drinking beers. It was really, really cool. Episode, Chris is kind of a teacher for me, because he taught me how to make risotto. And I've learned so many cool things from him. So it is a very special episode. And I'm happy that I'm closing 2021 With this episode in particular, also a special shout out to my younger sister Amalia, who helped me record this episode. She wants to study it visual design. This was her first experience recording and using the zoom h6 And I really hope she enjoyed it. And I'm having a lot of fun. Just bring her into this entire world of podcast at the tender age of 17. Well, I'll stop talking now. And I appreciate you being here. Thank you for listening to me talk through this last 21 episodes. And I hope that we have many more episodes together. But for now, let's go to my conversation with Chris Danko. Chris, how are you today?

Kris Dyankov:

When Phil had a good day, open air back to the sea. Pretty charged. So from all the experience a little bit tired and my muscles with Yeah,

Alex Villacis:

of course. Of course I see it. Okay, so here we are. And I would love if you could tell the audience who you are and what you're currently working on.

Kris Dyankov:

Yeah, sure. My name is Chris. I'm a Bulgarian designer. I am somewhere in between the world of product and spatial design. I'm hugely interested into working with various materials, I get bored easily. So that's why I think the product design is an interesting field to stay in. I use computers a lot to help me visualise my ideas faster prototype. You know, generic is a communication medium to like all sorts of machinery like 3d printers, cutters, etc. But I also like the traditional working methods. What I'm working on, well, it's good that you ask it just got a new job.

Alex Villacis:

Yay. Cheers to that. We're drinking beers right now. Because it's the kind of people we are. It's the summer we're fine. Yeah, that's your new job.

Kris Dyankov:

Thanks. Really excited, because? Well, it sort of covers all of the things I mentioned into one job, and it's going to be very flexible for me. So it's going to allow me to graduate and prioritise and graduation while being employed in doing something really interesting.

Unknown:

So the company sounds like a dream. Yeah.

Kris Dyankov:

The company does robotic arm 3d printing in concrete. And they're basing that over.

Alex Villacis:

Okay, that's very nice. But congratulations on getting that awesome job. I know you had a project that was similar printing base, like 3d printing basis with ceramics.

Kris Dyankov:

Yeah, exactly. And I think it was hugely thanks to that project that I did in my plus weeks in January. That's a was able to land this job. Let's say I was aware that there are certain steps in my say there's certain missing links that I just needed to create nicked in my skill set in order to be able to do certain things like that. And I took the time in the plus weeks to do that I ordered the book, which was a guidebook for the software and the printers and just presented this alongside my other projects. And somehow the language of it all spoke to the owner of the company decided that, yeah, that could be a good match by me for interview.

Alex Villacis:

Yay. So you have said plus weeks, twice already. So now I have to ask you, because he doesn't know what the plus weeks are essentially creating like that as a bit of the coding Academy, which is a university for design. And

Kris Dyankov:

yeah, Applied Arts,

Alex Villacis:

Applied Arts, Applied Arts and Design. Let's click that. And the plus weeks is basically four weeks a year or more.

Kris Dyankov:

I think, depending on which year you are, but I think, yeah, I think it's four year, four weeks. A year. Yeah. Yeah. And basically, you get

Alex Villacis:

to explore anything you're curious about. So if you're curious about if you're a graphic designer, and you're curious about metal work, you can just go and work in metal,

Kris Dyankov:

yes. As long as you're able to formulate a certain plan for these weeks and present it to your teachers, and they are okay with how you figured your plan. Or maybe they give you some suggestions. It's also nice, because you can set yourself goals and meet with them in the meantime, which I rarely do, but for other people really does work

Unknown:

for other people. So

Kris Dyankov:

well, I know for some, they really are much more dependent on having these regular meetings, whether I have one in the middle. It's sort of okay, this is a life update where I am right now, in the process, you are familiar with my plan, this is what I've done so far. Let's reflect on that. And we still have that much time left. Give me an advice. What do you think that's more or less how I feel? My connection with the teachers is in this particular period?

Alex Villacis:

Yeah. Because we all learn different like some people, guidance, other people need to just meet with them like once and be like, here I am. Do you have any feedback? I think that's a lot of the beauty of formal education that you have access to those things. And here you have access to those tools, like a 3d printer, and it's available to you.

Kris Dyankov:

Yeah. And, yeah, I think one of the nicest thing is that they do not impose on you that you're a graphic designer, you should stick to Illustrator or whatever medium you're using. Now, they're encouraging you, especially in these weeks to experiment with things that are in your interest, rather than staying just in your own bubble. And I've seen some of my classmates go into completely different unexpected for me directions, which I think are very beneficial for them discovering who they want to be as a designer, and what's gonna be interesting for them to work in the future.

Alex Villacis:

And in some cases to help you land a job. Yeah. And how did you get here? Because I know that this is your second time doing formal education. Yeah, what led you to do the first one, why do you the second one? And essentially, how did you get here?

Kris Dyankov:

Yeah, well, it's a long story, but I will try to keep it tight.

Unknown:

Because it highlights the low the high moments, the low moments.

Kris Dyankov:

It's true that this is not my first time, but it's not the second is actually the third. Yeah.

Unknown:

Thank you for showing the audience how unprepared I am. Well, not to prepare, I have just, yeah, well,

Kris Dyankov:

as I said, it's a long story. So I tried to skip certain details that are not as important or interesting. Okay. But long story short, I come from Bulgaria from Applied Arts, high school, which was very hands on, and we had many different courses similar to here, but just the younger age. Naturally, I get advised to follow interior design study, because that was the closest one to what I was doing. And I remember having this conversation, it's, I don't know, 17. I think with my mom, she was asking, Hey, what do you want to do? Like, do you want to study in university? Do you want to do it here abroad? And I said, Well, I'm gonna check a few universities, meaning I opened the websites twice, truly. Now because that was research for me back then. And I think sometime later, one of my very good friends mentioned that he has some on living in London. We were like, Hey, that sounds like a plan. Do you want to go study abroad there? Yeah, sure. Well, then let's go together. We're gonna be friends abroad. Why not? So, you know, long story

Unknown:

short will be coming out friends abroad, yeah, coming to cinemas near you? Good movie, The story

Kris Dyankov:

gets even more more interesting. And the funny thing is that it also revolves around this academy. Because we were a bunch of friends, let's say, six or seven of us. And with one, I went to study in England, thinking that we're going to get into a very small town near London, and we're going to be able to travel back and forth all the time, which totally didn't work, and the city totally sucked. And, yeah, we felt so much out of place there. Because imagine you never lived abroad. And you're thinking, okay, you know, living in a foreign country is going to be this shit. It's gonna rock so hard. They're not going to believe what they saw it now, you're going to be number one. And

Unknown:

to be young and believe in yourself, yes.

Kris Dyankov:

And then lending into a little town that is predominantly inhabited by people that just spend the night their sleep, go to work in the big city. And then during the day, there is no one. And people that were cool from the university. Most of them live live in London as well. So there was literally no one to hang out to it. So that year was sort of, yeah, let's call it that. Exactly. Yeah, next year, I actually moved to Italy to Milan. Very good.

Alex Villacis:

Chris lived in Italy, because that means he cooks very well. And he has made me food and it's delicious.

Kris Dyankov:

True. Thank you.

Unknown:

Very good. It's simple, but it's very good.

Kris Dyankov:

Yeah, living in Italy really was. Yeah, more or less getting back on track. Rocking as a youngster abroad. Enjoying good food. Beautiful views, youngster Oh, my God. Well, yeah, I was 18 and a half. 19 years old then. Yeah. I was young. It was 10 years ago now. Wow. Yeah. Last months of being 29.

Alex Villacis:

Oh, my God. Oh, no. Oh, God. Oh, my butt. Okay, let's go back to your story. So you're in Italy, rocking it now? In which city? Do you live?

Kris Dyankov:

I lived in Milan, which was very, very fashionable city. So I did want to study architecture there.

Unknown:

What did you do in your in England? What did you want to study there?

Kris Dyankov:

Well, I did a year of interior design and actually doing some of the assignments there. I realised Oh, wow, there's this thing called architecture. And I'm actually not that bad at, you know, the scale models, they understand the theory, I thought there was a lot of interesting stuff like they were teaching us about Bauhaus origins of, you know, art history in general, but more like the modern ones that are important. Important things in recent history that led to the development developments we are living into now, how cities were formed, what architectural styles we live in now in whatever. So that's, that kind of triggered an interest in architecture for me. So I knew another very good friend from our company that was in Milan studying that. So I went there to do that. In the Technical University of Milan, which was very prestigious, very, you know, old school type of building with a huge campus, really classy, you wanna take a picture in front of it. When you see it, you're like, mom, dad,

Alex Villacis:

today, my sister is here, by the way. And then so you're in Milan, you study there, and then you get to hear,

Kris Dyankov:

Well, I did. A few months of my study and sort of things became a little bit more serious for me because I needed to start working, which for me, was a new thing. I had already done a few commissions on my works before I left for England, in Bulgaria, which was very nicely paid. Big deadlines, doing my favourite work, but I never worked for someone for money, month after month to be earning my living, you know, and that was really a tough period for me, because above everything, I needed to do that in a country where predominantly population speaks Italian.

Alex Villacis:

And so now you're having to balance actually working and having the responsibility of short deadlines and making money and supporting yourself.

Kris Dyankov:

Yeah. And that's, of course For starters didn't work out very well, I gotta be honest, I sucked at the balance, or maybe it wasn't so much me because I was trying quite hard for some time. But also the essence of the job was to travel abroad and abroad, but around the city like small cities and villages, and speak to a lot of people in a language that I didn't speak. Yeah, you

Unknown:

told me about that. That must have been hilarious. That was to watch.

Kris Dyankov:

Not only hilarious, it was also embarrassing and difficult. But the sensation when you start actually making sense in a new language, if you're like, oh, shit, I just liked these people that I speak their language both ways, like, there is this type of sensation, or at least for me that this how you tell that? Wow. Okay, so apparently, we can learn this thing called Italian language, and be able to earn a little bit more because essentially, I was getting next to nothing for going to work because it was a type of job that you would only get paid for your contracts that you managed to sign with people. So it was like a direct sales job. Which, you know, in certain countries, they still go to obligatory military service. We don't have that anymore in Bulgaria. But yeah, I think for me, that was my small version of it,

Unknown:

you learn a lot, it's a it's a time in which you just learned Yeah, and

Kris Dyankov:

you learn how to take care of yourself, you learn how to prioritise you do mistakes, then you learn from them. So yeah, to bring you back to where we are now. After living there for about three years, I had already stopped studying and only worked. And the job wasn't the most satisfying one. To be honest, it was interesting, because I travelled most of northern Italy, like even the smallest pieces of lands, and they seem very brief places. But you know, somehow I always knew that. Before coming there, there was an entire other career paths for me, which was called design. And I still had little sites, jobs here and there. So whenever that was the thing I was feeling so energised and full of hope that I will still one day return to working with design, and then it happened. And then it happens. Look at look at where we are now. That's so

Alex Villacis:

great. I love this story. Because it's jumping from one thing to the next. I think there is this huge misconception that there's only one route to do things. So you have to do in a specific order. But then that's the whole point of this podcast to show that there are different ways to get to the right place.

Kris Dyankov:

Yeah, and the right place, sometimes you think it's one and after going there, you kind of adjust the course of your boat and you realise actually, I might want to go to the next village instead. And yeah, actually, it's better there.

Alex Villacis:

Exactly. You never know. So you never know what door is going to open.

Kris Dyankov:

Yes. And I think a good lesson for myself and maybe for some other people that are a little bit stuck with overthinking and over analysing, just go go somewhere, and then you will figure it out. I wouldn't say it's a good idea to go into stupid stuff like overeating or becoming a drug addict or something like that. But it's like

Unknown:

meth Not even once. Yeah. That's feasibly Chris's advice, man. Not even once. Yeah, try everything else except.

Alex Villacis:

Hey, friend, it's Alex just interrupting this conversation to remind you that in order to have the optimal experience and enjoy all the links in the show notes, you can subscribe to show on any platform you're using to listen to this podcast. And yeah, it supports the show he will improve the algorithm for you so he would show you more shows like this one that you will potentially like. And if you wish to support the show, you can follow us on social media. All the links are in the show notes as well as a link to buy me a coffee, which Yeah, will help pay for the hosting and I also love coffee. Thank you again for joining us in this episode and for letting me be in your ears. And now let's go back to my conversation with Chris the anchor. So in this super long journey of being a salesman for a while being a designer and now your new job in Eindhoven. Did you have any teachers that like Mark do for good or bad reasons like whose voice Do you hear in the back of your head when you're doing something?

Kris Dyankov:

Yeah, that's a good question. I think depending on the situation, there are different ones that like asking me right now, I probably cannot think of an exact one. But let's say for certain for different aspects, there are different teachers that I had through diamond, for example, some date, but all the way back to my high school. Others are very recent ones. Like, for example, one of the features we had the most ISAC. I think he's the the person that always reminds me of discipline. Oh, yeah, I think he's a very hardworking guy, and always take his work serious. He wants everybody to be serious in his class, while being actually young, and actually, yeah, working for himself, producing work as a designer, and being quite responsible teacher here. Yeah, I guess for other situations, there are other teachers that kind of pop in and out depending on the task I'm doing, of course, because

Alex Villacis:

everybody's a teacher, like a classmate could also be a teacher to review and advise at some point, and you're like, oh, maybe I shouldn't put my hand in the. I don't know, the grinder. Yeah, he told me not to do that.

Kris Dyankov:

And, yeah, same for me. I've learned a lot about cooking. And actually from my best friend, who I was sharing a house with. And then others and layers and layers added in, let's say, certain recipes or certain process in design, as I told you, product design is all about working with different materials, everybody's really free to choose their own medium. Some prefer to work with metal, others wood ceramics, and in every one of these things, you have a the workshop masters, or however you want to call them who are always there to take an eye on your project, maybe give you a piece of advice. And then you have Yeah,

Alex Villacis:

somebody who has tried a different thing and can tell you this works better.

Kris Dyankov:

And I think yeah, on the question of do you really need teachers? Which I think is your main topic for the podcast? Yeah. Because I think everybody could be a teacher. But the point of being in school is that you surround yourself with many, many, many possible teachers. Yes, because I think this academy, the approach is quite different from any of the other two schools that I've been into. And they let you figure out a lot of things yourself. You wouldn't get tutorials like, so. Okay. It's this is how we draw a rectangle in AutoCAD. Nobody fucking has the patience to do that. Sorry for the language. I don't know if

Alex Villacis:

you can curse. I think so. I don't think there's a problem with person. I hope not because of course, a lot of the other episodes.

Kris Dyankov:

Yeah, I hope not.

Alex Villacis:

I really hope because that will take me forever. Okay, yeah, we're back. And let's say I forgot myself. Okay, happens. So expanding on that? Do you see yourself as teacher? If anybody can be a teacher? Do you see yourself as a teacher now or one day taking that position as a teacher?

Kris Dyankov:

Well, probably for some of the people I work with indirect or live with. There is some sort of knowledge sharing. So for sure. If I would like to be a teacher, it depends.

Alex Villacis:

If it's a mentee, would you take a mentorship? Like would you take somebody to mentor?

Kris Dyankov:

Well, I don't know if I would. Again, it depends on the situation in my current profile, maybe not, because I believe one should teach. Yeah, of course, you got to be successful to a certain degree. And I'm saying I'm not feeling successful myself. But I believe one should be able to successfully manage his own practice, for example, be an employee somewhere, for a certain time to be able to teach somebody something. But on the other hand, let's say there are specific areas in which I know more than other people. So then, also in a less formal way, I could be teaching somebody something

Alex Villacis:

I think It shows ethics. I think something that we saw a lot in 2020. Was everybody coming out with their own course? I mean, how many people just decided I'm gonna teach you how to do this? And

Kris Dyankov:

yeah, so growing industry, exactly. But

Alex Villacis:

then you go on apps like clubhouse, for example. And I personally love clubhouse. And people are, I'm gonna teach you how to build your social media profile. I don't have any followers, and I haven't done it myself. But I have all the theory so I can teach you. So that just shows ethics that you want to be able

Kris Dyankov:

to provide that type of ethics really dates back from ancient Greek philosophy. Yeah, kill me about quoting who said, Well, exactly. But it's the principle of the ones that make and they are able to, they're the ones that should teach and not the ones that just want to be teachers, per se.

Alex Villacis:

Yeah. And we there's also the same the one that can't do teach us if you cannot do teach. And I honestly think that's not true. If you want to be a truly a good teacher, you should be knowledgeable in what you're doing. Yeah. At least be at a higher level or have more perspective as somebody that you're actually teaching.

Kris Dyankov:

Yeah. And I think that's what is very different from all that art academies design academies. That is different from other places. I think it was more than 10 years, maybe 1520 years ago. The Head of Design Academy ain't over. I think that was that was a hilarious Oh, yeah. They

Unknown:

decided what was going to be taught, right?

Kris Dyankov:

Well, she actually made the reform in education. So she sort of proposed or fired, I don't know what exactly was the rights order that it happened, but that all the teachers should be practising professionals. And if you take a look at all the people that are, you know, teaching you Theory and Practice, whatever they're all part time teachers in part time, whatever profession they're doing. And, of course, I think you can do that only to a certain extent. So that also speaks a little bit about who is really, really advanced in their career and who is not, I think, in what we see here, half of the teachers or, let's say, graduates from five to 10 years ago, or more, might be wrong, but it feels like, I'm not that far away from the mentality of the people that teach me. But the fact that they're all coming from very different places in they can show me very, very different perspectives, many topics. It's what makes that education system very interesting, and makes me think that is preparing me for the real world, because they are people who, you know, share fresh information with me from within the field out there out now. And not some theory that they're obliged to read to me from a book.

Alex Villacis:

Wow. So much truth in one sentence. Yeah. So and where do you see like talking about this reform? And how education has changed? Yeah, where do you see education going in the future, because now we have a lot of digital mediums, meaning that your teacher doesn't have to be in front of you. It can be in South Africa, or it can be in Latin America, or in Asia, or in the US as a matter. You can learn from anyone, any place. So how do you see that change in creative education?

Kris Dyankov:

Well, I think if we analyse what's going on right now, we would be able to sort of predict what's next. Of course, I'm only able to do that. But I think as you can see already design and art is becoming much more cross disciplinary. We start learning from scientists, maybe stuff that are very basic for them. But we as designers start thinking of, okay, I'm a designer, but I could come up with a new material for my specific project. And then I'm going to turn into science to see what type of natural bonding changes that there are in great Malone. bioplastic or something like that. You know, when I was doing my elective with clay, 3d printing, there were two other girls doing something similar. One of them created her material out of crushed eggshells that she bonded with something that comes from the kitchen world, which is again used in the gourmet kitchens, to make let's say fake cavia caviar and whatever, Jesus Yeah. So I think this is one thing Crossing disciplines are in really, as you said, raising the borders between what is just Dutch design because as you know, there are certain movements in Europe that have historically put certain countries in on the map of design, let's say made in Italy is one of them. But you also have Dutch design, which is more recent. And I think Bauhaus, which was from Germany, then you have exactly the modernist Yeah, yeah. And I think because of Internet, and the access, and free access to so many of these resources, you can learn pretty much anything. And I think people would start selectively picking what's really relevant for them in the location they are, because I think a huge portion of the designers is going to go into and I'm speaking predominantly about designers that work in create physical objects, they're going to go into sustainable solutions. And maybe, you know, if you're living somewhere in the Philippines, you might be working with washed off plastics, or with some alternative material to replace them all together. And I think these two are also quite globally. But let's say that was a good example. And

Alex Villacis:

we'll say that it was a good example. Yeah. No, I like it. And I think you're, you're very, you're correct, I think it will be more of taking what it's necessary, like you said, and be like what interests you and sense that if you're somebody who's very like as a, as a visual designer, because it's what I am, I can only speak about that you're very interested in the golden ratio, and how you can apply to typography. You can contact a mathematician, ask them like, Hey, what is different algorithms or different sequences that I can use to make my work more interesting? So you can dive into that? So if you could collaborate with somebody from a completely different discipline right now? What would it be? Or who would it be?

Kris Dyankov:

Yeah, I think I would have question go wild. Yeah. I never actually thought about it. Yeah, if it's to collaborate with someone, I think, for me, normally the collaborations are with somebody that is manufacturing something. So most of the collaborations happen with a manufacturer, and then the material changes. At least, that's also what I experienced during my internship, also, the dude that I was working for was, in the same way, you know, very much interested into getting a certain client because he knows that he's going to gain access to their manufacturing facilities, and understand how they can make certain things. So I think for product designers, it's always the most interesting to learn how you can make something, analyse it, tweak it in your own way, make an intervention, call it yours. Just an example. There was a student I think, from our academy from a few years ago. And I don't remember if it was he or she, or they are them.

Unknown:

We don't know, bro, those don't matter. But they, they explored

Kris Dyankov:

the technique of of blow moulding, which consists of you know, imagine how plastic bottles are made, you start with a single piece of plastic that has like a certain type of connector on the top. And then within the right, temperature medium and the modes and some warm air, it blows into certain shape, which then cools down and then you have final product. So that project was something similar, but they thought, Okay, I don't have access to all these conflicts facilities, what can I do, they took 3d printer, they modelled or downloaded already a 3d model of a connector, which is compatible with the air guns. And they boiled the 3d print because boiling also softens the plastic and 3d printers obviously, printing plastic. So they are able to make their own twist of this process in their own way with whatever instruments they had available.

Alex Villacis:

There it is, like the beauty of doing it like looking how things are done somewhere else and then just figure it out for yourself. And I think

Kris Dyankov:

one of the most interesting programmes for me, and also something that really helped me learn Italian was watching how it's made and discovery. That was the most interesting thing.

Alex Villacis:

Now it was a good show. Yeah, it's a great show. is not the only half Shark Week. What else do you do? Not shark?

Kris Dyankov:

Do you think people still watch TV that much? I think that's usually the reason that's a solid facts, because everything is really on demand. Oh yeah, I'm interested in this specific episode or show, and I'm gonna watch it all at once. But you're not like, I'm gonna turn on the TV and watch whatever is out there. So I think that's what changed

Unknown:

out there. What who does that? Just kidding?

Kris Dyankov:

Yeah, exactly. Does that? Nobody.

Alex Villacis:

So we have made it to the end of the interview of that episode. I'll change it in post again. Is there anything you want to promote Chris. And if you don't have anything to promote, that's fine. You can give us a movie or book, Song wherever you have, that you think will be inspiring. Like, so people recommend. Yeah, movies wants to do Kimberly's recommended books.

Kris Dyankov:

I think one of the most interesting books that I read actually listened to. Lately, in the past couple of years was coats when without pitching manifesto, for which I found out through another podcasts, he's got the future, of course, which they really focus on helping creative people like us think about the business side of what we're doing and really defend our interests. This book is gold, I think you can find so many things and play it over and over to listen to them once more, because it's more of a go to manual rather than just something you read once. So many useful things. And I think that's something we are also missing in our education here. Everybody's afraid to speak about the business of design. And I think that's the the most definite way to fail with it, that you never practice it. Yeah, I understand conceptual thinking, art history, whatever else technical skills are all is equally as important. But if you can do an invoice, dude, how are you going to run a studio after you graduate?

Alex Villacis:

That's a solid back, strong thought, and a great way to finish the podcast. Thank you so much. Great. Oh,

Kris Dyankov:

thank you for having me. This pleasure. Yay.

Alex Villacis:

And that was my conversation with Chris, I love talking to him, we always talk about the most random things that we get into these thought loops. And I hope you got to pick up a little bit of that, during this conversation. It's a true pleasure to have him in my life and have him be a teacher to me, and to be a part of his journey into design as well. If you want to check him out, you'll find links to his website in the show notes as well to the book, he recommended. The pitch manifesto, which I also recommend some very good book, very easy to read. And a good friend, he's designer, so I hope you'll pick it up. And as we come to the end of the show, I want to thank you for joining me on another episode and give me your time. I hope you're enjoying this conversations. And please subscribe to the show and give us a review or give us any feedback you can reach out to us on social media as well. All the links are in the show notes. To let us know if you have questions you would like to ask creatives, where would you like to learn if you have somebody to recommend please let us know I am here to make something great for you. And we'll be taking a little bit of a holiday break at the end of 2021 just to like relax, regroup and start editing podcasts episodes for you again. So back mid to January with a new episode and I already have five recorded and I have to say I they're great. I'm very excited to share them with you. That said again, thank you and hope to be again in your ears very soon. Keep learning and stay curious. Bye