Do I need school to be...

a lover of conversations? with Linda Bonney

December 16, 2021 Alex Villacís Season 1 Episode 20
Do I need school to be...
a lover of conversations? with Linda Bonney
Show Notes Transcript

In this week’s episode I’m bringing you Linda Bonney, a podcaster, podcast editor and producer, mother of 3, survivor, natural born interviewer and lover of conversations. Linda’s journey into podcasting was bumpy but podcasting helped her connect to herself and now help other realise their podcasting goals. 

On this very fun interview we spoke about:

  • How she taught herself how to podcast
  • The importance of umm’s and pauses in a podcast episode
  • The value of conversations, silence and listening as a superpower
  • How we are all different and we all belong

Want to learn more about Linda? Here are some links:
Instagram
Questioning the Normal with Linda Bonney

Here are a few links to topics we touched during the podcast
Toy designer Cas Holman and her Geemo

In an effort to make this podcast accessible, we make transcripts of every episode. You’ll find the transcripts on our website here, https://doineedschooltobe.buzzsprout.com

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Linda Bonney:

That's something which is really starting to become more and more evident for me is the fact that these conversations are continuous conversations don't just stop when you hit the stop button on the record. conversations continue. And they need to continue. And they need to develop a need to have time to sometimes percolate. And you need to be able to sit with conversations and really

Alex Villacis:

Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of joining, it's going to be the podcast in which me Alex is going to sit down with creatives and ask them about their journey into the creative field, focusing on their education, the teachers who shaped them, the boxer shaped in the movies, in general, what their journey was like, if you're somebody who is thinking about entering the creative field, I hope this show will be a resource to you, and show you that we all have different paths, and they are all valid. So let's go. I am so excited to bring you this week's episode because it's with the wonderful Lena Bonnie, who I met through the incredibly warm podcasting community on clubhouse. Linda is not someone who likes to be put in a box, which I think it's very interesting. And yeah, amazing. Such a creative spirit. She is a podcaster. She's a podcasting editor, producer, mom's survivor, she's, she's all things and more. And I am so happy that she accepted my invitation and came up to the microphone with me it was it's truly beautiful, vulnerable interview that I am so happy to be able to share with you. Just a short trigger warning. Before we start during the interview, we're going to talk about many things. And one of them is topic of domestic violence. So if you feel like you're going to be triggered by this topic, feel free to jump the first 20 minutes of the interview and to join us when you're ready. And remember that there are services available to you no matter where you are. And it's okay to ask for help. But let's not dwell on that. It's it's Linda story, and I want her to tell it to you. So here's my conversation with the wonderful Linda Bonnie. Okay, he didn't refresh. So Hi, Linda. How are you today?

Linda Bonney:

Great, great. Evening for me. So, but almost almost onto Sunday. Not quite.

Alex Villacis:

That's great. Just like enjoy, like getting ready to enjoy the last day before it's

Linda Bonney:

Monday. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Alex Villacis:

I'm very excited to have you today. Like we like we spoke before doing before we started recording. And we talked about how he was very meta to in these creative education podcast to interview a podcaster. So it's like an onion. It's one thing inside the other.

Linda Bonney:

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yep.

Alex Villacis:

So to begin, let's just kick it off with, tell the audience where you are and what you're currently working on.

Linda Bonney:

Sure. So my name is Linda, and I am a podcaster. First and foremost, that's my absolute love. That's what I really love to do. And I'm also doing that while juggling lots of other projects, like many other podcasters do. So I am also a mom of three very active busy boys, nine, six and nine months. So that certainly keeps you busy. And I'm also working from home, doing a lot of VA work and helping other people with their podcasts as well. So helping them launch from the ground, nothing, I'm helping them revamp sometimes 150 episodes in, I'm helping them with a lot of the output, input, editing, audio, all of the pieces of the puzzle, which really helps me also broaden my understanding at the same time. And I fell into podcasting, really, so it was purely accidental. If I look back now, it's always been there. So I remember talking into the old cassette player, you know, hitting the record the playing record at the same time and recording my voice over and over again. Asking questions for my sister who was a little bit younger than me, we record stories into the, into the cassette player and play them back and record songs or make up our own songs and all that sort of thing. So it's always been there, I think. And one reason that I think it really works for me is the fact that I love to ask questions. I love to have conversations. And I think that it's ever evolving as I evolve at the same time as well.

Alex Villacis:

That's amazing. I love all those answers. I love how you felt just randomly into it and now you have into your main occupation. And this one is great because it's something that it's also allowing you to like, raise your children and be and be present in their lives. That's beautiful. It's such a beautiful idea. Yeah, it sounds like it's your passion, you sound very passionate about it. So, how to get here? So you started learning, you just started your first it started with your own podcast? or did somebody ask you to help them with theirs? Or how did that start off? Or how did you get here?

Linda Bonney:

It started to sort of started simultaneously, really. So it started with me feeling like I needed to find a big part of my identity again, after quite a quite a bumpy road, in some ways. So just to walk you through it fairly briefly. I was in a situation where I unfortunately was at the receiving end of quite a violent relationship. So I was in a domestic violence relationship with the dad of my first two boys. And so through that, I really felt very lost, I really felt like I didn't have much of a voice, I didn't have much identity, I didn't know what I loved anymore. I didn't feel like half of who I was. And I remember somebody saying to me when we left, because it actually took us five times to leave. So it took us quite a while to actually get the final final out. And I remember someone saying to us while we were actually in a, in a refuge in the shelter with two boys at that stage, who were three and one. And I remember someone saying to me, Oh, it'll take you know, about three to five years to really find yourself again. And I just thought at that time, no, no, like, I did so much better than that. I was in complete denial. I really was. And I didn't think I thought I could really beat the stats, and I could really find myself again, in a shorter amount of time, then the steps allow me to. And yeah, it actually takes about three to five years to really get some sort of smooth, run, feel a little bit half human again, he really does. And so I had been listening to podcasts, sort of on the sly, because it was something that I felt like I couldn't do comfortably within that space, unfortunately. So I was listening to a lot of podcasts of people who were in a similar situation to myself, I was listening to a lot of podcasts that were very inspirational, inspirational for me, in learning how to live again, in a way, and also listening to a lot of podcasts about starting up small businesses. And having watched my dad owned small businesses throughout my life. I, I felt like it was a really great next step. So I've had four podcasts so far. And actually remember, yeah, really feeling quite empowered in the, in the whole podcast process.

Alex Villacis:

Thank you for sharing that with me and for being so vulnerable about your story. And I think that's the beauty of podcasting that it allows you to share your story. And maybe not share your story but empower yourself through creation. And through saying, hey, I can do this is something that I can do. I don't need much to do it. I just need you could XR put them with your microphone with your with their phone, actually, or with just a small recorder just need a computer? Yes. I mean, there are some barriers to it. But it's something that you can start any day. And I'm so happy to hear that through that you connected with other people and with other knowledge, and that he helped you like pave your way for the beautiful life that you have now.

Linda Bonney:

Definitely. Yeah. And look, it's very hard to capture that story succinctly. Because there's a lot more layers to it, then I can share in minutes on a postcard of course. And I think that's what that's something which is really starting to become more and more evident for me is the fact that these conversations are continuous conversations don't just stop when you hit the stop button on the record. conversations continue. And they need to continue and they need to develop and they need to have time to sometimes percolate and you need to be able to sit with conversations and really Yeah, just yeah,

Alex Villacis:

just To put to put it in a, almost in a dumb context, because I like putting serious things in dumb context to make them easier to talk about. There was the song that I think was a Jason morasso. Just, it doesn't run them this marathon. And I heard it for the first time, and I loved it, and I got one meaning from it. And then I didn't hear it again for years. And then years later, I was in a completely different place in my life, and I heard again, and then it was just a random song that I understood in a completely different way, because of the place that was in my life. I think same things happen stories, you hear a story once at one state of mind, with a certain level of experience, but then you hear it again, make days, months, years later in the year in a different mental space, different level of experience, then it just clicks in a different way. And that can happen stories.

Linda Bonney:

Yeah, the same with telling stories now to like, I listen to myself telling that story back. And it's very different to how it was five, six years ago. And it's got way less attachment to it now than it used to. It's way less emotional. It's part of my journey. And it's, it's still developing and doesn't just end, and as I tell the story, so yeah,

Alex Villacis:

that's beautiful. And then then during your journey, did you teach yourself everything? Or did you when it came to podcasting? Like what you did tell you're 100% self taught?

Linda Bonney:

Pretty much

Alex Villacis:

I Yeah, because there aren't many courses to learn podcasting? Of course. So no, how was it? How was it trial and error? Was it a lot of figuring stuff on your own? Did you find resources? How was that how was the process of learning?

Linda Bonney:

So I started podcasting in 2015. So at that stage, there was probably less noise in the podcast space, and maybe less resources. I remember doing a lot of experimentation, and a lot of YouTubing, and Googling and talking to other people, and really finding a bit of a groove. And also having quite a confrontational time in the expectations that I would set for myself and having to adjust those, and realising that, actually, for 30 minutes of audio, there's sometimes up to three hours of editing, depending on the client and how they might want to edit it, or depending on my own expectations of adding extra or taking up arms, and RS, which I was doing right in the beginning, I was taking out, you know, any breath that was too loud or

Alex Villacis:

too long, they didn't talk for they stopped talking for three seconds, it sounds to make it one.

Linda Bonney:

And I look back on that now. And it's such a, a an interesting experience. But it's also taught me a lot. And this is what I would like to really start to discuss a little bit more in the podcasting space. Are we dehumanising people in the podcast world by taking out arms as silent pause? Because sometimes, in my experience, if you're saying, you're actually collecting your thoughts, you're actually starting to formulate an idea. And we are so quick to jump to the next thought or jump to their response to the question or jump to whatever, like we're in a quite a fast paced society. And even in podcasting, we jump to, oh, on next week's episode, we have John Doe, of blah, blah. And once the episodes out, we might post it 6543 times on like every single social media platform? Well, it certainly feels like I over exaggerate, it certainly feels like that much. We post and post and post. And then, in our podcast world, it's often that's it. And it's quite unfortunate, because like I was just saying, you know, our conversations, continue our ideas, formulate our experiences, develop our thoughts, and so much more needs to often come from that one conversation that we've had.

Alex Villacis:

I love that. And I think that could expand to should you lead old episodes that are not as good. So this is my this is my second podcast. My first podcast is made for nonprofit. And I learned I we did 24 episodes for that. And you can really tell the difference from episode one was a mess. It was I edited on GarageBand and I forgot to turn off the metronome when I can sported so in the episode, you can hear that tick, tick, tick. And a friend told me, I thought it was an artistic choice. I honestly thought, what an interesting artistic choice and I was like, nope, 100% mistake. And my boss told me, it's your project, so you can choose how to keep it. But I think you're gonna want to, like record the first episodes. And I said, No, I actually like that. They're so imperfect and that they're missed. Because as you continue listening, they just get better. Like, I figure out the music, I figured out how the up in the word volume, I figured the passes. It's still far from perfect. And I'm sure that these podcasts will be far from perfect to that. Does it need to be perfect? Maybe it doesn't.

Linda Bonney:

I deleted so many of my old episodes. I felt the shame I felt so absolute. I felt like that time was over that time was done. And in hindsight, wow. What would have to go back and listen to them now? would be? Yeah, yep. See

Alex Villacis:

the growth, like be like, Wow, this was terrible. That's something that as it's among the graphic designers, as a designer, it's really funny to go through old projects and say like, what what was I thinking? Why? Why it's too much yellow, the spacing is weird. Why did I do things this way? But that shows growth is just shows that your aesthetics change that the what you think is quality changes? It happened to me more recently with a movie which movie was it? I think it was Legally Blonde. I hadn't watched it that the Reese Witherspoon movie, and I'm saying this is somebody who loves Reese Witherspoon. I love her. And while I love her in dramatic roles, and I loved legally broke when I was younger. And then I watched it again. And I thought these movies not good. These movies proposing very strange things. But it can also be the other way around. There is this cheesy movie called Bring it on. And that movie was way ahead of its time. In that moment, the topics are proposing which was a rich school full of white people appropriating the routines that you read routines from a school that had lower income and was mostly African American people. And I thought back then I just thought like, oh, okay, it's happening. I was younger, but then re watching the movie. Now I thought this movie was really talking about some serious issues in that context. That was funny. So there is that, like you said, with stories, like sometimes you understand one thing, then later, you understand something completely different.

Linda Bonney:

Yeah. And so much of that comes down to listening, right? Totally, being able to listen and be able to have some space, and thought to not just be quiet while the other person takes their time to respond to you. But also sit with their response before you jump in with yours, or listen to the podcast and then pause. Or listen to the podcast with a friend, and then continue the conversation. There's so many of those opportunities, I think, which are quite overlooked, and quite undervalued, you know, why, maybe? Or perhaps we don't feel like we have the time for them in this world that we live in. It's just very interesting that

Alex Villacis:

we are curious, very curious. I love that. So your teachers have been experienced them making mistakes? And who have you had any other teachers like maybe, maybe they didn't teach you directly but people that you admire, and you were learning from them, even if they weren't actively teaching? Could you tell us about that?

Linda Bonney:

Yeah. So one of the big podcasts that I remember, editing is actually called the love life show. And it's an Australian duo, who I think they do 200 episodes, and they talked quite a lot about some major self development work like listening and being relationship building and love and what to do. If you're not doing what you love, and things like that. So in listening to a lot of those podcasts, I was often hanging off every word. And one of the hosts also took her time to mentor me in that space as well. And so she's definitely been one of my biggest teachers. Also my dad, so my dad's. I've always admired my dad for Am I dot, and we are quite similar in the way that we think. And I actually interviewed him for one of my first podcasts while he was in Antarctica. So he travelled to Antarctica for almost 18 months when he turned just before he turned 60. So it's quite, quite amazing. He's quite inspirational and taught me a lot and still teaching me. And then there's also three very big teachers that I have, which are my children. So they are definitely very big teachers in my patience and resilience, and even just in the podcast space, thinking about how I can approach it creatively and differently. And their voices are actually on the trailer for my podcast, as well. So it's really, it's wonderful to get them involved in that process. They love sitting here and getting in front of microphone and watching the the waveforms go up and down. And just hearing their voices back and things like that. So yeah,

Alex Villacis:

that's, that's so beautiful. And that fits with the concept that I mentioned, like in the questions that teacher is such a loose context. It's such a loose, meaning, at least in this show. Because any, any experience any moment can be teaching you something or somebody can mentor you from a distance, or your parents are your first teachers, by their presence, or by the opposite, they teach you something. And you're then your children like what help biggest teachers because we learn about yourself. And you learn how they will approach life. That's, that's so beautiful. I love how you put it so eloquently. Thank you. And now where you are, do you see yourself in a position that you can start teaching others? Because I'm guessing so because your your podcast and helping them and be like, Hey, man, almost mentoring them a little bit into finding their space? What's your teaching style? How do you approach it? Hey, friends, it's Alex just interrupting this conversation to remind you that in order to have the optimal experience, and enjoy all the links in the show notes, you can subscribe to the show on any platform you're using to listen to this podcast. And yeah, it supports the show, he will improve the algorithm for you. So he will show you more shows like this one you will potentially like. And if you wish to support the show, you can follow us on social media. All the links are in the show notes as well as the link to buy me a coffee, which Yeah, will help pay for the hosting. And I also love coffee. Thank you again for listening to the show and letting me be in your ears. And now let's go back to our conversation with the wonderful Linda Bonnie.

Linda Bonney:

I don't like to be boxed in. I'm one of those people that actually the name of my podcast is questioning the novel. So my or my current project, my current essay, because I have lots of others on the backburner and lots of other things happening. And that's the thing. I have many, many tangents many many things that I enjoy many things that I love to do. I've done a lot of video editing, and I spent some time interviewing people for their About Me page. So I will do a video on audio for their about me and ask them questions just like we are doing right now. So I don't like to be boxed in. And so the thought of pitching myself as a podcaster, or podcast support person or even a VA type. Type role can be quite challenging for me. And that means that I've done several several different things and several different journeys, but all podcasting and it keeps coming back to podcasting. So something I've had in the pipeline for quite some time is actually the podcast playground. So that is a space where we can get curious and we can listen, and we can reflect and we can go back to old episodes and listen again together. And we can think about the importance of having healthy conversations and decent conversations because I think it's often overlooked, especially for people wanting to go into podcasting. They go straight to the tech, they go straight to the editing, they go straight to that. What type of headphones Am I gonna have on? How am I going to who's my host and who bla bla bla bla bla. And sometimes they need to learn a little bit more about how to listen, how to have good conversations, how to ask great questions, how to reflect how to, I guess defrag a little bit after podcast interviews because it can take some of your energy and can be Actually on quite a high after, after, I don't know about yourself. But yeah, you're you're almost bands after a podcast interview. So what that looks like. And I really want to set up a space, where we can all come together to discuss that and reflect on that, and that sort of thing. So that's my current project. But like I said, I don't really like to be boxed in. So that's a space where I can really bring a lot of that in together. I think it's interesting as far as we, if we're thinking about the future of education, and what I'm teaching, or what we're learning and that sort of thing. I've been thinking about a question recently, in how I don't necessarily like being told what to do. And I think that's a fair statement for lots of people. And I know my children certainly don't, don't enjoy being told what to do repetitively, it doesn't have, it doesn't have good results, you know, the house ends up in a bit of chaos, and they retaliate, and they feel like they need to dig their heels in, and then we start getting more and more, no, stressed or upset or feeling like we need to reiterate points or tell them what to do. And I don't believe there's a lot of value in being told what to do. I think there's a lot of value in learning how to do things, or having someone guide you or listen to you, or show you or so many other ways, then being told what to do.

Alex Villacis:

That's, that's so pure. And so true. I think you would love Have you seen this show abstract on Netflix,

Linda Bonney:

we don't have Netflix, so

Alex Villacis:

maybe you can look up this person on Instagram, I will send you her information. She's a toy designer called Casselman. And that's her belief that children don't need to be told what to do when and how to play, they know how to play, we just need to give them tools to do it. In the in that the doctor, it's a documentary series. And in each episode, they interview a different designer in the episode that's hers. She's talking about these toys she created, which is like a centre with three tentacles. And it has magnets on it. And some sides are positive and some sides are negative. And the box comes like 20. And kids can do whatever they want with them, they can hang them from somewhere and make a web or they can make a character they can do whatever they want. And when she was pitching it to the people that had paid it, or they were just presenting it again, to her investors. They were like, okay, but they're white. Shouldn't they be like have colours? Just like no, they don't get only colours, like kids don't need colour, like why does the colour and they don't need it? Like don't there's no necessary? Like, okay, maybe they need a face to be a character. She's like, No, they don't have a character either. Kids can decide that in on their own, they can decide if it's a character if it's a tool if it's a web choose. And the final one, which I thought was the most hilarious one, they wanted to put a sign of what was positive towards negative. So kids would know how to magnetise the toys correctly, which is a no, they will learn on their own, they will realise that two sites don't click, they will just try the next one. You don't have to spoon feed them anything. I think that aligns very well with not being told what to do, just being given space to discover and entertain. And I think many times like I think to me personally, at least those are the best teachers, the teachers that don't tell you. This is the path that you need to follow. That just show you this is a path. There is this there is Dad, you can look into here into there. One of my previous interviews, she was talking about this teacher that just kept throwing themes at her she was interested in one theme. And he just kept throwing resources at her not knowing what she would do with that. Not knowing if she was it was her alignment because just providing more resources to see what you would do and I think that's beautiful. It's not telling you what to do is like showing you options and possibilities.

Linda Bonney:

Definitely, and that's what the playground is about. That's the spaciousness you need the ability to experiment, experiment wildly and see, well, let's see what happens here. Or test this out and not carry a lot of fear or judgement or expectations and not feel Like you have to do something just because it is the norm. Or just because you are told that that's how everybody does it, especially in podcasting, that's quite significant. I feel like there's a lot of pressure on podcasters to post on Instagram and Facebook and Pinterest and LinkedIn, like so many spaces and all the time we're flying solo. A lot of the time, we are looking at other people doing all those things, and they have a six people in their team doing those things. But we are still seeing that person, or hearing that person or clubhouse or hearing that person on the podcast and thinking, what am I doing wrong? Because I can't do all these things. And it's interesting, because a lot of that push has held me back. And I realise I absolutely realise that I take full ownership of that. But that podcasts that push push push has actually meant that I've frozen and gone up that, that I'm just gonna not do anything, which is actually the opposite of what a lot of people were sometimes trying to tell you to do. So that's also quite curious about that as well.

Alex Villacis:

Totally. And I think something that is currently missing in creative education is how to get to know yourself. So you can be in a space that you can say, this is what I can do. Because they tell us like you have to post on everything you said, because every social media, maybe I can't maybe I physically can't I have a job, I don't have the time for it all, but you have to want to be successful. There are many paths to be successful. And maybe your success won't be 100,000 followers on Instagram will be successful be just put out an honest conversation. Do you think in the future that creative education should be focused more? I mean, from what I understand from our conversation so far, you think it should be more focused in the human aspect, not in that technical digital aspect?

Linda Bonney:

Absolutely. And humans are not linear. We are not this flatline, that we all fit into my eldest, he can literally read a book while watching TV while eating dinner, while like he's the little buds kid that can do several several things at once. Whereas my middle child, I know that he needs to often just separate himself from all of the energy around him just to Refresh and Reset. And he needs a lot more rest. And he leads to take things a lot slower. And he's also incredibly intelligent at the same time. So there's so many different ways of being creative and learning and creativity for and slowing down for one person might be sitting on the couch and thinking or meditating. And for another person that might be going for a walk and talking to a dozen people down the street. I don't think we can keep trying to doctored into this is the way that is best. Or this is the way that that works for you, or me or things like that.

Alex Villacis:

Yeah, or this is the way that you should get over something or this is the way because we see it not only in education, we see it in everything. Like this is the way that you should look because other people look like this. Or this is the habits that you should have because other people have them or the way you should parent the way you should design the way you should learn because my typical learned running topic for my other guests is that they wish education became more flexible in a way that it could adapt to your needs. And to yourself learning. I have mentioned this before. I heard on the podcast about rethinking economics. They were talking about how AI could combine with education, saying that the fear is that an AI will replace a teacher. But the person talking about it proposes why can't an AI help the teacher. So the neurotypical children that learn in every specific way can be taught by an AI. Another AI can teach children to learn a different way than the teacher can supervise and adapt to adapt them and then focus on the non neurotypical ones that need more human support. And tracking. I think it's a beautiful concept. What do you think about that?

Linda Bonney:

Look, I think that even within that set up, let's say as a hypothetical We are still looking at a system and a process. And in my experience, and what I believe is systems and processes are often very dehumanising.

Alex Villacis:

Yeah, because we think for the majority, or the general enough for the individual, right?

Linda Bonney:

That's right. And there are 7 billion individuals in the world, all wired very differently, all with very different experiences and upbringings, and all with very different inputs and outputs, and, and so on. And you like, like for yourself, you know, you know, three or four different languages. So you've got lots of different ideas around languages in itself for me, I mean, I didn't know one, I have never learnt any more than one. So, in understanding that one language, it's probably quite different from you, who's got several different understandings of different languages at the same time. And so for me, that answer comes back to a lot of that spaciousness and listening and not necessarily trying to fix or set up something which caters for all the needs of the neurotypical one, the stereotypical one, the atypical, one BT cohort, and C, D, E, F, G. It's about allowing the spaciousness to become curious and ask questions and focus and not be interrupted and not be told what to do and not. Not necessarily use all the moments as teaching opportunities.

Alex Villacis:

I love that, especially like, not every moment teachable moment. Some moments are just moments to fit in enjoy. Yeah, I was I was I saw these. This meme today, it was about a baby reading a book that was called tight, open bracket, tighten up, open up title, closed mouth, HTML for babies. And I thought, why can we just let them? Like, why does it need to start when they're few months old? Like, why can't they just eat babies? Or be little kids for a while? Why are we starting to put information in them? And like you said, within a society that go so bad, so fast, that we're losing our business and stuff. Maybe the kid just wants to go outside and jump in a puddle for four hours? To get teachable moments. He says, jump in Apollo for four hours,

Linda Bonney:

and say nothing, just say nothing. Just observe and watch them in the puddle. Instead of Oh, is the water hot, too cold? And oh, look how much you can splash. And oh, what colour are your boots? And oh, there's so many ways in which we interrupt moments with what we think is necessarily to sometimes feeling those silences or sometimes with our own stories and beliefs and understandings. And like I said, feeling like we need to feel those moments with teaching opportunities, and what colour is this? And what colour is that? And that they already such sponges. They're learning all the time. Constantly.

Alex Villacis:

Yeah. And like you said, they're sponges. And just by being curious yourself, they're learning to be curious, because you're a teacher, you're teaching them even when you think you're not teaching them. They just learn on their own. And I think that's something that as adults, we should embrace and remember, and hold on tight and learn without need of a system. Just like you said, Be curious. That's right. I'm about to jump. I've loved this conversation, learn learn so much like products, so many perspectives. I appreciate that. So as we come to the end, is there anything specific you want to promote? It could be your podcast, it could be book, movie, school, thought, whatever?

Linda Bonney:

Yeah, absolutely. I would love to invite people to come and play with me in the podcast playground and experiment wildly and find the space to reflect and discover more and just be held.

Alex Villacis:

Let me see. I'll put it in the show notes. And I'll definitely check it out. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you so much for sitting down with me and I hope you have a great day. You too. I kid you not you guys, this might have been one of the most quiet and insightful and vulnerable interviews I've done for this podcast. And I really love that I love talking to Linda about the importance of silence and being quiet and giving space and allowing people to just be human, which is what education should be like allowing people to have the human experience studies learning. So it was a true pleasure to have her on the show. And you'll find links to her and her work on the show notes as well as the designer that I mentioned Castleman and their project GMO. And I hope you'll enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it, producing it and doing all the things with it. And as we come to the end of the show, I want to thank you for joining me on another episode and give me your time. I hope you're enjoying this conversations and please subscribe to the show and give us a review or give us any feedback you can reach out to us on social media as well. All the links are in the show notes. To let us know if you have questions you would like to ask creatives. What would you like to learn? If you have somebody to recommend please let us know I am here to make something great for you. That said, again, thank you and hope to be again in your ears next week. Keep learning and stay curious. Bye