Do I need school to be...

a teacher in training? with Naomi Jansen

November 11, 2021 Alex Villacís Season 1 Episode 16
Do I need school to be...
a teacher in training? with Naomi Jansen
Show Notes Transcript

For this week’s episode, I spoke to Naomi Jansen who is currently finishing her studies to become a Fine Arts Teacher. A very meta episode where we talk about what it’s like to learn how to teach, we spoke about:

  • Naomi’s motivation to start a new study
  • How finances influence her decision
  • What it's like to create a creative assignment for students and more!

Curious about Naomi and her journey? Here are some links:
Instagram
Her Website

Naomi’s book recommendations:
Teaching to Transgress by Bell Hooks
(Full disclosure, these are affiliate links. Nothing changes for you when you shop but affiliate marketing helps support the podcast)

 In an effort to make this podcast accessible, we make transcripts of every episode. You’ll find the transcripts on our website here, https://doineedschooltobe.buzzsprout.com

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Naomi Jansen:

That you grew up with something doesn't always mean that you can probably use it in a right way or to full function. So that's a question more than I have in my head like, yeah, is everybody even capable of using all these sources because there's, if there's so much, it's also even harder sometimes to focus on what you want to research, for example, or what you want to learn.

Alex Villacis:

Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Do I need school to be the podcast in which me Alex is going to sit down with creatives and ask them about their journey into the creative focusing on their education, the teachers who shaped them, the books are shaped in the movies in general, what their journey was like. If you're somebody who is thinking about entering the creative field, I hope this show will be a resource to you, and show you that we all have different paths, and they are all valid. So let's go. Today's episode, it's very special, because I am talking to now my young son who's learning how to be a teacher. She's doing a part time art fine arts teacher training at the villa mechanic Academy in Rotterdam. And she will give us some insights into why she did what she did before this, what learning how to be a teacher is like the importance of feedback. And much more. This is a great episode. I hope you enjoy it. And here's my conversation with Naomi Johnson. And we're recording now. Hey, Naomi, how are you today?

Naomi Jansen:

I'm quite good. I'm a bit tired a long day of talking already. So

Alex Villacis:

what let's hope like we don't bring that energy to the No, exactly. bring an energetic vibe. It's okay. We're just chilling. We're talking we can just be relaxed,

Naomi Jansen:

better subjects. Yeah, talk about Oh,

Alex Villacis:

yeah. Well, here we are recording a podcast face to face with no screen in between us, that's fine. I always say that, because most of my interviews so far have been through an electronic medium, you Riverside through the same caster through once what one was on zoom. But it's a different interaction to be actually face to face with a person. So tell the audience who you are and what you're currently doing.

Naomi Jansen:

So I'm Naomi, I am 26 years old, and I study at the Illumina coding Academy. And I'm in my third year of the part time studies I do here, and it's a teacher training for to become a fine art teacher. Yeah, so that's takes most of my time, really, they say it's a part time study with actually like, almost full time or even more than full time. Maybe I do that to myself an extra that I used to do a lot of graphic design work. But now it's a little bit on hold, because I don't think I want to go into that direction any further. So I make some autonomous works. And it's a bit I think, it's always hard to describe what kind of work you make, but a bit performative works that are always in relation to the context that they're in. So I really like to work from a specific place, and then see what's happening there and then make a reaction to that place in any kind of medium or form. But unfortunately, because of all the time that goes into my studies, it's Yeah, I'm not working on a cool project at the moment.

Alex Villacis:

What's fun about this is that in the joining school to be podcast, we talk about creative education and you're a person that's not in the field right now you're training to be in that field. So it's very meta, because you're getting education and how to educate Yeah, so it's like there's a layer beneath all of this Yeah. And how did you decide that you wanted to go into these training to become a teacher?

Naomi Jansen:

Well, actually, that's a really funny question for me because for me, it was like a financial reason I already had a bachelor in media studies. And then I thought like, okay, I always wanted to go to art school, just because for fun, but because I already had a bachelor it would be super expensive to do a second bachelor. But unless it's a teacher training, then you get like a discount of the government to pay like half of your study fees and stuff there are a lot of great advantages of doing a teacher training. Interesting so my first reasoning was only financial and then I thought like okay, I will start this programme which is four years and in its first two years, it's only making developing your own artistic process. So I thought, Okay, I will do these first two years and then I will decide if I want to become a teacher or not. And then after my second year, I really enjoyed all the making, but I also found out that I was always also in my previous study, very critical to towards the teachers that I got. I always had a good connection. with them, but always also had some issues like why do we have so many rules and assignments? And that I thought like, maybe I'm here at the right place and become a teacher myself, I'm so stubborn in what I yeah, in my opinion of what education should be. So now I'm in my third year and going to my last graduation year already.

Alex Villacis:

That's really interesting. Because you you're coming from this place in which you have you have an opinion, and you go from I can do this, or this could be done better. I'm going to go ahead and do it. Yeah. So a little bit, yeah, instead of saying in like, oh, it should be different, you're actually because a lot of people do that a lot of people stay in a business should be run differently or distribute done differently, or that then you are you're actually doing it and applying that to your studies.

Naomi Jansen:

Yeah. And I, what I find interesting myself is that I also don't have a answer yet. What good education is then for me, so I know what I don't like about a lot of different types of education. But I'm still figuring out like, it's not that I find, oh, I can do this better. But what are possible ways to maybe do this better. So I'm not I don't have one opinion yet about it. But I'm more like discovering.

Alex Villacis:

If there's one thing I'm realising in these podcasts, and I hope other people realise it, too, is that there isn't a set path. And there isn't one thing that fits everybody. Like, a lot of people think when they listen to the title, that I'm going to be bashing formal education. But it's totally not that I am a person that is getting God, God, and he's getting formal education, because that's what works for me and for my brain. Yeah. And everybody's so different. Everybody's diverse, everybody's neuro diverse. And some people like me need the structure. Other people are perfectly fine learning on the internet and making these incredible things. Yeah, I'm not that I need the push, and I need the critiques. And I need the the assignments to push my creativity. Yeah. And yeah, I love that you don't have a set answer, because that's the truth. There isn't one set answer for everybody, then

Naomi Jansen:

I also think it will different from every year, like maybe this year, I think, like a good education is this and this. And then next year, maybe I will think like, okay, no, this doesn't work at all. And we should totally switch it over. And yeah,

Alex Villacis:

yeah. Because, again, we change and we grow. Like at one point in time, we thought cocaine was good, too. For a sore throat. Now we know that it's not a we change things. And that's also the beauty of it, that as we change, we change the ways we learn. And new tools are introduced, we play with those tools, and we see what happens.

Naomi Jansen:

Yeah, exactly. So that's maybe also what education should be like that it's constantly developing and adjusting to what the people that are in this education need. And one from it.

Alex Villacis:

Yeah. And transforming and moving. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you mentioned teachers that you had, can you like, bring us to great teachers are not so great teachers? Like, do you have any stories to share about that?

Naomi Jansen:

Yeah, I mostly Remember to grade teachers, because that's what I like to remember.

Alex Villacis:

Stay in the positive. I love it. I love it.

Naomi Jansen:

That's a good thing. And maybe what I really liked when coming here. So first time for me at an art school was I think a teacher that I had in my second year. We had lessons every Tuesday night. And for me, Tuesday night is always a Tuesday evening, everybody had their day jobs and came on quite tired already. But he was like really good in adapting to the moment let everybody ground a little bit in that we're together now and leave work behind. So then, these classes on Tuesday evening never felt like classical way of teaching it was more like always on the same level discussing everybody's work, but they made or if people didn't do their homework, then it was not an issue at all. It was just really equal and always asking questions instead of giving answers, I think. So for me, that was something that I really took like, okay, that's what I want to keep for myself and use as well when I become a teacher or give less instead it's more about these common ground of everybody and looking for common questions and talking to each other instead of being one teacher that stands in front of the class and saying what the rest of the class has to do. And

Alex Villacis:

that's great. And I think going through it where we're are as education is moving forward and changing. we're stepping away from these hierarchical idea of the teacher is above everybody else. And that when you enter the classroom, it's their time and you have to It's your you can always the teachers time over coming to this like your teacher that would adapt to what the students needed in that moment. Like probably one day everybody was super motivated. I was ready to listen to a two hour lecture. Yeah. And then other days, it's just like, let's talk and let's see what happens. Yeah, not.

Naomi Jansen:

So no, the first assignment that really I think it was the first assignment, the introduction was we came there in a class and the first assignment was, okay, everybody has to go out out of the school, walk for 10 minutes on your own, after 10 minutes, you sit down for half an hour. And after half an hour, you come back here in the classroom again. So we just arrived, and then we had to pack our bags and go sit somewhere. But the idea was that everybody had their own experience in walking for 10 minutes, then relaxing for half an hour. And then afterwards, we could all discuss on what we experienced and how all these individual experiences were if we did see overlap, or I don't know, I thought that was so funny to the first class you gave you send everybody away for half an hour. It's quite experimental wave. Giving you a lesson.

Alex Villacis:

That's so fun. Usually, like first classes first days, it's what's your name? Where do you come from? Here's syllabus, yeah, then just sending you out into the world and be like, explore, see what happens? And then come back. Yeah, we'll start when you're ready.

Naomi Jansen:

Yeah. And by talking about these experience, everybody had you also get to know each other? straightaway, because you knew people that didn't like the assignment that they got really frustrated? Like, why do we have to sit still for half an hour louder? You know, like, that says something about your personality? It's not good or bad. But it's, it says something about you. So it's a different way of getting to know each other? Yeah.

Alex Villacis:

Wow. It's nice. And before the Academy, are there any other teachers that like, Mark you that they want? Because I think we all have it, that one teacher that sits in the back of your head? Do you have that?

Naomi Jansen:

Yeah, I have all my all the types of studies I did, I think of my bachelor in media studies, I had one teacher that are still in the back of my head because I had this topic that I should write a really big essay about. And I didn't like writing that much. But he really liked my subject so much that he kept on sending me sources of information, like, oh, did you read this about it? Did you read that about it already. And even when I finished the project, and handed it in, like half a year later, he was still sending me like updates about my topic. In case I was still interested in my own topic. He was invested in your journey. Yeah, yeah. He liked it so much that he kept on giving information. And then at that, like, yeah, and then you were really committed and enthusiastic teacher, if you half a year later, you still send emails like, Oh, you should read this article, or you read this MOOC.

Alex Villacis:

Oh, that's so knows. And then I think that's also that level of human connection. That is not only I'm here to teach you something, but I am here to share with you knowledge and to create a space for you to learn. And if you're interested in something, here is more information that,

Naomi Jansen:

yeah, and also know your students, I think, like, I think for me, a good teacher is also somebody that knows what everybody is busy with. And not that you're like one of the 800 students he or she has, and don't know what everybody is up to. It's just nice. If somebody knows exactly that, oh, you're doing research on this, and you like this, and this, that you feel as a person instead of as one of the students.

Alex Villacis:

I think that was so hard for them. Let's see so hard also to be a teacher to build that connection. And to be present. I think as students, we forget that many times that it's more engaging than we think it is, at least for good teachers. That's why good teachers are so rare.

Naomi Jansen:

Yeah. And also, especially if you get a different class every year. I know also that some teachers really, for example, I did an internship this year at a high school in Rotterdam. And a teacher that was my internship, he said, guidance

Alex Villacis:

guide coach supervisor.

Naomi Jansen:

She really liked it if she had a class for like, in their third, fourth and fifth year of the school because then he really got to notice students instead of getting a new class every year. Because if you get a new class every year, it's the first month at least you're busy with trying to get to know everybody and especially in art school is like trying to get to know everybody through their work. What are they expressing what are they making, it's not like maths, or something or science, in which you just have to learn the effects. So yeah, I can also imagine that it's really valuable if teachers have the same students for over a longer period.

Alex Villacis:

Yeah, especially when you're in a creative field, because then it expands. And you can see their work develop, and how maybe it starts with, like seeing somebody start, let's say, for example, with anime, like basically replicating animes, to developing their own style to including their own stories to coming out with a style that maybe resembles where they were. But now it's different, or it's a higher version of where they were in the beginning. Yeah. And just getting involved in that story. I mean, how we all get involved on social media with strangers, be like, I am so engaged in their journey. Yeah, that's what teachers do engage in those journeys. Yeah. And influence those journeys as well, like your teacher was sending you on this material. thinking maybe this is something that you'll be interested in, in the future. Yeah, this shape, helping shape you for a longer period of time.

Naomi Jansen:

Yeah, exactly.

Alex Villacis:

And how do you see yourself as a teacher? Because you are going to teach like, do you have an idea? What can the teacher you want to be or assignments that you want to put forth? Or how does that internal process begin?

Naomi Jansen:

Yeah, that's a good question. And a hard question. I think,

Alex Villacis:

oh, we're all about hard questions. You can always change your mind. I mean, you don't have to decide today where you're going to be tomorrow.

Naomi Jansen:

Exactly. That's true. Well, maybe it's nice to say what I already found out. And that's mostly during my internship. Because I think if you only talk about teaching in like an abstract way, what we do a lot during the teacher training, like we get all these sources of how to become a good teacher and what works and not but then in the end, it's all about the practice you do and how you put it into practice, instead of only talking about teaching. During my internship, I also discovered that the most energy I got was from coming up with assignments. Because that's almost like making art yourself. If you come up with assignments, it's almost even harder to come up with a good assignment then to make a good artwork. Because there are so many layers in it that you have to think of what would a student do as a possible outcome of this assignment? How will I grade it? Do I want to grade it, there are so many things involved. But I really enjoyed that process of coming up with assignments also during the time of COVID that we had suddenly switched through digital aggregation then had to come up with assignments for a whole digital class. And then during the end of my internship, I also discovered what I really liked about teaching and what I really want to cherish as a teacher is these in between moments with students it's a bit what we just discussed already like that. In the end, I really got to know every single student out of the class, like what are their interests? What are they making, if I give them assignment at the end of the last assignment that I gave during my internship, I already could like imagine what every student would start to make not like the real product but I know some students start working very intuitively and working really big and others are like sketching in their head for like three weeks and then the last day suddenly comes out it's Yeah, that's what I really like so far about teaching to see this progress in Yeah, in the students and coming up with the right assignments that everybody has their own freedom in it and

Alex Villacis:

have you ever come up with an assignment that backfired that you expected one thing and or maybe not backfire? Right, that's the wrong word. But the you expected one thing and they just interpreted in a completely different way?

Naomi Jansen:

Well, not interpreted into a really different way. But I think all the assignments that I gave were quite open. So it was always a surprise what would come out of it, but that's also what I loved myself as a student that you have your own freedom in within an assignment. Instead of that you have to do this one thing. And if it succeeds, then you're a good art student. I don't believe in that. But yeah, so sometimes there were outcomes that I thought like, Okay, I know, it's an open assignment. This is like really going off the grid.

Alex Villacis:

Like really out there.

Naomi Jansen:

Yeah, I know, one girl at some point started throwing with sand into a painting of her parents. Like, okay, maybe this was not a good assignment. I hope they didn't get fired because of my assignment.

Alex Villacis:

Oh, no. This wasn't a good idea. Yeah,

Naomi Jansen:

exactly. Oh, no, not my fault.

Alex Villacis:

You only gave her the assignment? Was she interpreted with? Yes. That's what she that's her creative journey. Yeah, maybe that was that was what she needed to do.

Naomi Jansen:

I didn't get any angry emails. So that's,

Alex Villacis:

that's important that good feedback. And a lot of things we talked about in the podcast is critiques and feedback, because that's a lot that comes from education. When you're creative. You get it from formal teachers, from mentors from somebody who has more experienced than you. How does a teacher get feedback? Do you get the you get the students? Do you get it from the parents? Do you get it from other teachers? How is that how is your feedback loop?

Naomi Jansen:

Well, I think for me, personally, it's a moment that I'm in right now. So as a student that wants to become a teacher, most of the feedback I get is from other students in my class, because we have a lot of discussions on what happened in the internships, for example, and how people handled it. And these things are most valuable to me that I see different insights and also get a different insight into that there are so many different classes, and so many different vibes within these groups of people, that it's always bigger than your own perspective. So right now, yeah, most of the feedback was through peers, I think the PRC is the right word, right? Yeah, peers, like your level. Yeah. Or at least for me, that's the feedback that I cherish the most. Because, of course, I still have teachers that teach us to become a teacher. So difficult. And they have all these experienced knowledge. But sometimes I also have the feeling that that knowledge is how do you say that? Also, their own experience. So it's not better than the experiences of fellow students, I see it all as equal knowledge.

Alex Villacis:

Yeah, and the fact that you're teaching a new generation, you're teaching a group of people that have had access to technology their entire lives. So the process of catching their attention is going to be different than how it was to catch the attention of somebody that was born in maybe the early 90s. And we didn't have a cell phone in our in our faces went to the second we were born. I think about it constantly. Especially I have a lot of like little nieces and nephews, because my cousins are all having kids in a very loving the American way. And I see it, I see how they put cell phones in front of their eyes. I have a niece who's three months old now. And she already has a cell phone in front of her to play videos, and so on. And I think how this is going to affect the way she learns. Because probably when she's in pre K, or in kindergarten, they're gonna have tablets instead of paper. Yeah. How, how would that process change? And I think that leads well to my next question, which is, where do you see education is today? And where is it going to go in the future? Because we're far like before, if you wanted to become a teacher, you would shout, Shadow another teacher and learn their methods. But now we are in a different stage in which you learn from peers as well as from teachers. And also there are so many online resources, especially for Creative Studies. Yeah. So where do you see things going in the future?

Naomi Jansen:

Yeah, big question to answer to my class.

Alex Villacis:

Yeah, I mean, we can be wrong. We can speculate. I mean, I know a lot of people thought like Bitcoin was going to be a big thing. And it was. It's crashing now. So clearly, we don't know what we're doing.

Naomi Jansen:

Exactly. Well, if I think about what you just said about the media that is now part of like that all these sources are open for everybody. I still think there's a lot of work to do in how we use all the sources because even I grew up with the Canada think or not really from young age, but the generations after us did, at least what you say, like with the iPad and stuff, but that you grew up with something doesn't always mean that you can probably use it in a right way or to full function. So that's a question more that I have in my head like, Yeah. Is everybody even capable of using all these sources? Because there's, if there's so much, it's also even harder sometimes to focus on what you want to research, for example, or what you want to learn. For example, you can now become a teacher yourself. You mentioned it before by video, YouTube tutorials. Yeah. But then you still have to choose like, what do I want to look at? Do I want to study Spanish? Do I want to be a guitar player? Do I want to study? I don't know. It's still quite hard sometimes to make a selection and focus on doing something and achieving something instead of doing everything all over the place. I'm drifting off a little bit of your question. medication

Alex Villacis:

is great. And I have so many, actually, I have a couple questions that I want to ask you. But on that, that you said about what you want to teach and how you want to teach it. I think there's a huge difference between For example, one of the people that I interviewed for the podcast, he got a mentor of Patreon. And the person teaches her methods. And then once a week, they have a call, and they talk about the exercise to talk about the work, and that it's more of an engaging experience. I personally like the domestic courses, but it's a person showing how they do their things. And they're very the tactic, like they explain a lot of things very well. Yeah. But there isn't the same level of engagement because I'm just watching a video. Yeah, so both are digital resources. But they have a completely different level of interaction. Yeah. And I wanted to ask you, I realised this other podcast is called rethinking economics. And now, and they are talking about disruptive technologies, and how AI is going to influence us. And on one episode, they were talking about it, teachers, and how a lot of people think that an AI can replace a teacher, but the person speaking, he was talking about how there can be a combination of it, that the teacher and the AI can work together, that the AI could teach neurotypical students, while the teacher could dedicate their time to the neurodiverse ones, and then bring them both to the same level. So I think that lines up with what you said that you can have the access to technology, but it's about how you use it. Yeah,

Naomi Jansen:

yeah. And it gets maybe even more personal because it's, there are so much more options in how to design the education that you can also make it more specific to everybody's own needs. For example, even now, in physical classrooms, again, I can imagine that some students just prefer looking up a subject online googling it and whatsoever, while other students are more enjoyed while they listen to a teacher talking about the topic. And maybe a combination in between those two things is also possible. So I think it's more of the future of education will be more personal. I think that it's Yeah, differentiated to everybody's own needs.

Alex Villacis:

Yeah. And I think that's also the beauty of it, that because of the digital mediums, and because of teachers, you can have that you can decide now, it's not like in previous generations, maybe if you didn't fit in the regular school model, they thought, Oh, you're dumb. But now we know better. And we know the person who's not done, this environment is just not working for them. A lot of people benefit from being in the environment with a lot of other people, and discussing and talking and others will benefit from being this small classroom with maybe just two or three people and the instructor and evolving through that.

Naomi Jansen:

Yeah. And it's also what you put that's hard to already think of at a young age, but what you want to get out of it for yourself, that if you have that clear like what your own goals are or what your own what you want to get out of it. Then you can also find your way in what type of education fits you or maybe no education at all. Yeah, no strict form of education. It's sometimes it's hard to imagine when you're just at high school and finishing it or something and have to make a choice in if you want to go to a different school or

Alex Villacis:

honestly, I've always thought that it's really unfair to ask an 18 year old to choose a career when they're 18. Yeah,

Naomi Jansen:

exactly. It's impossible. You're 18

Alex Villacis:

you know, you don't know what you're gonna like in five years or in 10 years and you can switch and pivot. But that's also the beauty of it that now you don't have to stick with what you studied, you can niche down to a very specific thing that you like, or you can switch completely. And there are no the decisions and not aspects now anymore.

Naomi Jansen:

Yeah. But the only thing what will be an improvement, I think, if it will be more cheap to make education more affordable for that salary. Yeah, dream. Because right now in this studies as well, I have classmates that are already in their 40s or even 50s. And that's really inspiring to be in a class with just all ages instead of just graduated

Alex Villacis:

students, and so many different perspectives. Yeah,

Naomi Jansen:

yeah, exactly. But I can imagine it's quite a blog to start a new study when you're 40 years old. It it's already hard to like it's not really found normal, I think, to start a new study when you're 40 years old. And next to that you also have to work in order to pay you for your studies. And yeah, I think the future should be free for everybody.

Alex Villacis:

That's the thing that there are so many backgrounds, and adapting to those different I hit the mic. There are so many backgrounds and so many perspectives and so many stories, then finding what fits you and what fits your budget. Yeah, it's very important.

Naomi Jansen:

Yeah. But I sometimes feel that is not spoken about enough. In schools. It's not that it's, it's that people have a side job in order to pay their rent, and then have to do a lot of work for studies. Yeah, it should be more,

Alex Villacis:

it is a topic that I have brought up a couple times already. I remember when we had our first assignment. It was here at the Academy. It was a very fun yet nerve wracking assignment. It's the type of assignment that you do it then and then three years later, you think I should have done it completely differently. I would love to do it again to just like, merely vindicate myself in indication now. And we have very different needs. So that some of us had to work in had an a, a four, a4, not smaller. There wasn't a four think was an eight, a seven format, which is tiny, like an a five a six? No, it was a was a six, it was tiny. Yeah. But other people had an A zero format. So clearly, my costs were a 10th of what the cost from somebody else were, who had to buy special materials had to print a lot more than I did had to create a lot more than I but you chose your own format. No, it was at random. It was like it was we got shapes, words, colours, and paper format and two techniques out random. And I chose like, I got luckily lineup card, which is a very cheap one. Because you can I you can make a lot with that. But other people got very expensive techniques with very weird formats. And the when, when we talked about we spoke up and said like, Hey, this is this is skyrocketing very quickly. Yeah, the answer for the teachers was money should not be an object, you should figure it out. Yeah. And I just think that's a very insensitive and very glib answer, because you don't know what the person's background is. Yeah, I think there is this belief that because you go to art school, you come from a rich background, and then you should figure out how to manage all the money that you have. Not thinking that maybe you don't have the money

Naomi Jansen:

here. And then also, I think that teachers should have came up with solutions, how to make it as cheap as possible, for example, to give inspiration and ideas. If you get this technique that it's really expensive normally, like how can you hack it into something that is

Alex Villacis:

they did suggest one thing, but there was in a tone, it wasn't in a tone of well, this is let's figure it wasn't in the in a way that they said, Let's figure this out together. Yeah, we can come up with a solution together. It was more in a tone of well, there is you can use recycled paper, or you can use newspaper, it was in a tone of you idiot quickly answer it. And exactly. He was basically saying, You idiot, you didn't figure this out before. Yeah. And out of that was very dismissive. But I think that that comes with experience. And it's having these conversations and being able to say, hey, you should have thought about this or next time, please. getting feedback from your students, like you said, getting feedback from peers and students and saying like, hey, maybe next time can you be a little bit more considerate of the fact that some of us cannot afford

Naomi Jansen:

this? Yeah. Yeah, and it's also good that you at least heard you say that, that people spoke up about it, because then it's even more shitty that this teacher doesn't do anything with it. Because speaking up about something is also for a lot of people quite a step to take, it's quite still sometimes quite hard to give your opinion about an assignment or how people teach. But I think that's already quite brave. If people dare to do that, it should be normal. But still, it's quite brave if students speak up. So then it's, and that is ridiculous. Yeah, this teacher reacts.

Alex Villacis:

And that, but that also speaks for the teacher that or for the staff that they created a space in which you felt Okay, I can't say this, that I can critique back and I can say, Hey, this is just not okay. Or this doesn't fit our needs, please be more considerate. And yeah, I think they changed that. I think they changed the assignment to introduce recycled materials from the beginning. So from the beginning, you know, like, Oh, I don't have to buy everything. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. That's better. Yeah. But it's just this feedback loop of being constantly engaged in a feedback loop.

Naomi Jansen:

Yeah. And listening, as well. And listening.

Alex Villacis:

So thank you so much, Naomi, this was such a great interview, I think we touch on a lot of topics that I hadn't touched before with other guests. And I love that you brought up the socio economical aspect of education, which is also very important. Yeah. So do you have anything you would like to promote and you would like to recommend, it can be, I've learned that a lot of people maybe with because of COVID, or because of their situation, they don't have anything to promote. So maybe it can be a book that you wrote, then you read you wrote, maybe you wrote a book that you really liked, or a movie, or anything that you think would be interesting to somebody that's interested in creative education?

Naomi Jansen:

That's a good question. Well, I'm now I don't have anything to say about it yet. But I just started reading a book that was a tip from a fellow student of mine, but I just started in and it's of bell hooks. And it's called teaching to transgress. Nice. So maybe that's my tip, although I didn't read it yet myself, but I just rented from the media library.

Alex Villacis:

Well, that's great, then maybe when we get on the life, we can talk about it. The book is exactly. Well, thank you so much.

Naomi Jansen:

Thank you.

Alex Villacis:

You have just listened to one of three interviews actually recorded face to face with somebody. The first one was my interview with ginger cones, which is, I think, episode seven or eight, the Naomi's and then the last episode of the season with Christiane Clark. That's also a live face to face interview, and it's so weird to do it. I didn't know what to do with my hands. It was it was an experience. But I think it turned out great. I loved hearing about Naomi's journey into becoming a teacher. And I think many times students don't think like teachers had to learn how to do these things. There's a reason behind it. So I hope you enjoyed it, and that you got a little bit more insight into that. And if you're inspired by Naomi, you can find her information in the show notes as well as a link to her book recommendation. And as we come to the end of the show, I want to thank you for joining me on another episode and giving me your time. I hope you're enjoying this conversations and please subscribe to the show and give us a review or give us any feedback you can reach out to us on social media as well. All the links are in the show notes. To let us know if you have questions you would like to ask creatives. What would you like to learn if you have somebody to recommend please let us know I am here to make something great for you. That said, again, thank you and hope to be again in your ears next week. Keep learning and stay curious. Bye