Do I need school to be...

an illustrator? with Josh Loera

September 23, 2021 Alex Villacís Season 1 Episode 9
Do I need school to be...
an illustrator? with Josh Loera
Show Notes Transcript

This week, our guest is Josh Loera. Josh is an illustrator from the US currently based in Guatemala. Josh left his career in engineering to pursue his artistic dreams and is a great example of self-education and learning through mentorships. He is also a podcaster himself and you’ll find his show below. In this episode we talk about Josh’s experience in formal education, his most honest critic who he also lives with, his mentor and how formal education can keep inovating 

Like what you hear? Here are some ways get in touch with Josh and see his work:
Nahualli Modern Aztec Heroes
Time Machine Creative Shop
Creative People Time on Instagram
Creative People Time on Spotify
His mentor Dominic Glover

In an effort to make this podcast accessible, we make transcripts of every episode. You’ll find the transcripts on our website here,

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Stephanie Mojica:

If I can go online and research the kind of art that I want to find, and, and have that influence the way that I learn art, then it's that doesn't make any sense for me to go to that school. Hello, friend, and welcome back to another episode of Do I need school to be a podcast in which me, Alex is going to sit down with people in the creative field? And I'll ask them questions about their journey more specifically about their education, how they learned their trade, who were their mentors, or who are their mentors, what books influenced them, and hopefully find some answers that will maybe guide you in your journey in the creative field. Everybody's different, and we all learn in different ways. So of course, we're all going to take different paths, and they're all valid. In this show, I am celebrating any type of education, whether that is formal education, whether that is self taught, whether that is the internet, it doesn't matter. We have so many options today, and I want to talk about it. So let's talk about it. And let's have some fun together. Welcome to episode nine. Can you believe it? I can't, but it's happening. It's here. I'm so excited for this interview. I think you can feel it in my voice. This is a an amazing talk with a strong Latin American artist, Josh loyera. He broke out of the world of engineering to pursue his dream of becoming an illustrator and telling stories with colours and shapes. He actually has a comic book about Aztec mythology and children becoming superheroes of that nature. We have so many superheroes, why don't we have pastic mythology superheroes. He also has his own podcast, which is called creative people time, and I have an episode on it. And we talk about my creative journey. It's It's full of amazing stories by different creators. You'll find links to everything in the show notes of this episode. But now about today's episode, in this show, I'm going to talk to Josh about how he made the decision of becoming an illustrator and leaving his engineering job, how it was to go to school in the US, and he's experienced engineering school for his teachers what influenced him, we get very critical at one point about what formal education needs to do to stay relevant compared to all education. He actually has a mentor that he talks about on the episode as well. And it's linked in the show notes. And now enough of my babbling here is my amazing conversation with the talented Josh loida. And we're recording now. Hi, Josh, how are you today? I'm good. How are you? I'm Alejandra I'm good. scalding hot in the Netherlands suffering but surviving and very excited to be here on the mic with you. Where are you? Where are you right now? I'm in Guatemala City actually nice. What's it like there? No, no, it's actually pretty nice. Where it's, it's kind of rainy. It's been a little bit rainy. But in general, I thought it was going to be kind of hot. Being from Houston, I'm used to the heat. But here it's it's not that hot, like hot. And it's got a lot of breeze. So we don't even have an AC and we're and we're we're pretty comfortable. Nice. So let's begin with telling the audience who you are and what you're currently doing. Sure. So my name is Josh loyera. I am of Mexican. I'm Mexican descent. I was born in Indiana in the US born and raised out there went to school for civil engineering actually spent five years in the civil engineering, industry selling engineering engineered products. Like my last job I was selling bridges and during that time, I kind of taught myself illustration and other digital media and and and traditional media and had the opportunity to move to Guatemala with my girlfriend and and start doing this full time. So what I'm doing right now is I'm in Guatemala, doing illustration and other digital design independently. That's super interesting. You're You're so far I've interviewed a couple people already. And you're the first one that pivoted completely from one field from a non traditionally non creative field to the creative field. How did that happen? So I'm guessing I'm gonna make a huge assumption here. But because you are of Latin American heritage, and I'm also Latin American heritage, probably the arts was not a profession that was encouraged. Yeah, and engineer was seen as being an engineer like engineer like your father or in You're like this person or doctor or lawyer? What was it like? Huh? Yes, yes, it's kind of like that. And, you know, I've been kind of trying to track it down as far as like the culture within my family. But I do, I don't think, you know, I think it was encouraged as a hobby, because I do remember always being acknowledged for for the things that I can draw. And you know, that the the creative talents that I did have like, music, guitar, saxophone, and etc. Even doing a little bit of poetry here and there. But yeah, it always, I think it was always reinforced as a hobby. And the question was always, what are you going to do for, you know, money. But, you know, I was also getting a lot of acknowledgement for how I performed in school, you know, I was good at, you know, math and sciences, and, and so somewhere along the way, it was coming from the school system as well. Like, we I remember having this little career fair and say, it show you take, you take a little test, and it's like, oh, you're good at this, and this, and this, you know, you're good at spatial stuff, you're good at math, you're good at science. Here are things you could do with the spatial thing, spatial skills and artistic skills. And they'll show like an income is like, super low, if any, and then also show engineering, which matchup matched up with my skills, and then you're making pretty decent money. And, and so I think, and, you know, that paired with, you know, the defunding some of the art programmes after school that that I had been participating in, and, yeah, just the multitude of things that went into that. But also my, you know, my natural inclination to like, you know, math, science and, you know, traditionally, you know, spatial type things, you know, geometry and stuff. You're a true renaissance man, then very, very beachy style. You can you can develop yourself in the engineering world, but also in the artistic world. Yes, you can say that. And I think a lot of people, I think more people than not more people than we might think, are like that, you know, being in, in an engineering school. A lot of my friends that I met had that creative side, and are some of the most talented people on the creative side, but also some of the most talented people on the engineering side. And, and, you know, are successful. Like, I know, one of my buddies, he's a mechanical engineer with a computer science minor that works for Ford. And he plays in a rock band on the side, and, you know, other stuff, and another friend, who's a super great singer, and as a chemical engineer in Houston, and so yeah, I think there's I think the the whole Renaissance term should be bring brought back, you know, because I think a lot more people than we might, that we might think about are like that. And I like to use the Renaissance man. nessa nessa Wald Coit, from from Aztec from the Aztec era, who was architect, poet, artist, politician. Warrior. So he's the Renaissance guy I'm trying to emulate. Wow, true to your heritage? Yes. You know, it's, I think that's so true. I think there is this misconception that when you're good at one thing, you're not good at the other. It's about training those two parts of you and seeing how they can match up together. But now, going to your artistic career, which is now an international artistic careers is your What is your self taught? Right? Yes. How? How did you? How do you well, being self taught, I'm always very impressed about how people teach themselves skills. Did you go to, like digital, like already digital content already pre created? Or was it following the steps of somebody else? How did you teach yourself? What was your method? Sure. And yeah, and I say, I say self taught, self taught. And I think that's, yeah, probably not the best term because I learned on YouTube, I learned on I learned on Skillshare for some of the skills I've learned. I have some, I've had, you know, a couple of kind of mentors that we can talk talk about later. But at the very core of it, it's just getting, figuring out what I want to draw, trying to draw it and then figuring out what I'm lacking. And how to how to solve for forgetting that how to solve forgetting the skills that I need to, to make that, that what's in my brain on paper, because it did start with, with like, coloured pencil and marker like, yeah, just high end markers. So you could do the base layer with markers, then you do the coloured pencils and just like looking up which coloured pencils work best, which papers are best, which how to to shade how many like layers you want to do without messing up the paper or messing up the drawing. And so let's look it's like a strategic way of learning in the sense that I want to make things. How can I learn to to make those things you know, in other interviews that I've had, they're talking about how a teacher gives you feedback and points out those things. But sounds like you're a person that can look at things and say like, Okay, this is missing, this is lacking. So you're have you're doing that cycle of feedback with yourself, which means that you have a very critical eye about your own work. A lot of people don't have it. A lot of people are quality blind. They're so in love with the thing that they did. They're like, yep, it's perfect. I really love that one. I wanted to ask you actually, you have one image on your Instagram, this Anthony Robbins portrait. I've been Look, I love it. I first of all, I love Anthony Ramos. If he ever listened to these podcast things yet. I love you. I am obsessed. But actually, it's not from Hamilton, and he did a musical about a boy. He was also really him. And then beyond that. He was about selling drugs in the school. And he was like the good kid that got caught up selling drugs in the end. Because a cop tricked him I fall in love with him. It's a really cool musical. And he's the main character and it's hilarious. He has this one song called cousin bout how everybody has a cousin that can hook him up with something. And I think oh my god, I have that cousin. That that's such a Latin American thing. We will have a load of cousins. But yeah, I digress. My question about that. What's the name of the musical Rocha? Let me look it up. From 21 Jump Street, the musical. Oh, interesting. Okay, cool. Check that out. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's from 2014. I digress back to the podcast. No, yeah, I made that digitally. And, yeah, I mean, that's my, that's like, technically, like, by technical terms, that's my best piece I've ever made. And, and I feel really comfortable saying that. But yeah, I went in did every little brushstroke every, you know, little line I did with this pencil on on the screen in front of me is like this big is like, kind of like an iPad but bigger and it connects to a desktop. So it's like it's a pen display screen. So yeah, and yeah, I some of those skills, I got some of that. Lately since I moved out here. I did. I've started a mentorship programme with a guy named Dominic Glover. So some of the things that I learned from him, I'd put into practice with that. But actually bringing it back to the whole self being self critical. I actually wasn't self critical enough, I actually probably am naturally not that critical. I guess I'm the spectrum of being critical. Because, you know, because I can get down on myself on on what my art looks like. And that's definitely a real thing. But sometimes, I'm not seeing certain things and some something that helps for that was actually my girlfriend. She's not afraid to tell me the truth about what a what a piece looks like. And she'll be like, Well, you know, I remember the first drawing I made, she's like, I don't think you're that good at drawing women. And I was like, dang. Okay, so like, I redrew I read drew this. Who was it? It was a, I love it. Yeah. So I read you her face over and over until I got it right. But then I also made it a point to to try to draw a lot of women and just for representation purposes, young women of colour, so if you scroll down, you'll see a lot of women of colour as my subjects. So yeah, it's always good to have someone to critique and give you some some some constructive criticism. Yeah. That's great. And that's, that's the part pushes you to be better. It's constructive, you know that it's not mean. And we'll talk about bad criticism in a B in a bit. But I want to hear about your mentor, you mentioned that you had a lot of mentors and then you named one. Who are your teachers that mark, do you the ones that were influential to where you are today, maybe in engineering school, or now, or who's the one that's still in the back of your head that you do something and they're there? Sure, there's a, there's a few. So my dad is actually really naturally I think, creative. And he has like a natural knack for, for drawing, but the whole engineering side comes out in a, in a very much hands on way. where, you know, he, we grew up working on cars, and he can paint a car, he can sand a car, he builds these little welded, you know, statues, and he, and, you know, he doesn't call it art, he just, it's a functional, like, he'll then put a light in it. And then it's a, it's a lamp, or he'll put, you know, hook he creates these these functional pieces that he doesn't see as art, but I see it as art. But also, he was the, he was the first one to encourage me to draw, I remember my first sketchbook, and sometimes I'll go back and I'll find find that sketchbook and some of the things that he drew in there. And then some of the things that I drew will like, pass it back and forth, just to, to like, you know, draw things. And he, he had his uncle, which was my godfather, who, who passed when I was young, also was a talented artist, and, and he, my dad would have some of his drawings, some of his his old drawings that we wish he would show me. So he stands out, even though you know, he he wasn't, he's kind of the same in what we were talking about in the beginning, where he just didn't know a way that to monetize art. And his his profession was kind of was a of a maintenance person, you know, fixing things at a place that made at a place that he worked, and keeping track of the generators and the engines. But then fast forward, past engineering. I have a buddy that I went to college with his name's Eddie Tovar. he's a he's a UX UI designer, he was the only person I knew that was that had a career in something that was creative. So when I started, when I got to a point where I had been teaching myself and learning and wanting to push it further, and maybe consider jumping ship and changing careers, he was the guy that I called. And, you know, he was, you know, he gave me some feedback on, on, on trying to develop style and develop things in illustration, since he had some education on on digital illustrations. And so he helped me with with some digital styles. And and then he actually guided me to taking some classes in UX and UI. So UX stands for user experiences, user experience, UI stands for user interface. That's a huge creative industry right now creative industry right now. You know, designing apps, designing web, you know, websites. And right now the first, the first like, not the first paying gig since I left, but the biggest paying gigs since I left is as a web design client that I have so. So he's been a great mentor to me. And then Dominic Glover, he's got he's got a he's got a mentorship programme through Patreon. So I had just been scrolling through Instagram, I liked his style. He's like, become become one become a mentee for 15 bucks a month and you can you know, have like, all these calls with him, he gives you assignments and yeah, just the few things I haven't been with him for that long, but the few things that he had had me do led to what the capabilities for me to make, to make that Anthony Ramos picture. That is so cool that like the span that the ties that they have your dad that has been from the very beginning your uncle in almost ad through your dad, and then you're a person that's your friend, and then somebody that he actually paying for. So I like that diversity there. I think there is this idea that a teacher is only a person that you meet at school, but anybody could be a teacher. Your friend is a teacher that he's teaching you and helping you develop and grow and in our interview, we're talking about how the teacher serves as a guide, observing what makes the student curious. And guiding them in that direction. So your friends saw that and guided you to UX and UI. That that's really amazing. And these, how do you? How do you feel about this whole new industry of method of paid mentorships? Because one thing that happened before in the creative field in the Renaissance, you went to a painter and said, Hey, I want to learn from you. And you became the assistant, and you learn through that. So the apprenticeship programme, and now we have the paid mentorships. And you're a user of a paid mentorship. So how do you feel about it? And how, how, did you ever worry that it was a scam? So I had for this guy, Dominic, I can tell that it wasn't a scam. And which was the reason I it took me a while to actually sign up for something that was paid. And, and some of them aren't scams, some of them are, are, are there real training, but they're very expensive. So yeah, I think it's a good, it's a good resource, you know, the, the way that the way that the education industry has, has become, you know, take take, take mentorship, where you can get it if it's good. And when I saw that, how well Dominic can draw and how relatively affordable it was to sign up for his mentorship, you know, 15 bucks a month for it, and I could meet with him X amount of times a month, like, I don't even take advantage of it fully. Like I could meet with him even more often. But I got so many side projects that I only meet with him probably once a month, or twice a month. But still 15 bucks, is not a lot in the grand scheme of things when you're looking at art school 400,000, if you go for the full four years, right, or 20,000 for one, right, and who knows if that if they're even teaching you what's what's applicable, because you're going to spend time doing all your gen ed courses, you're going to spend time playing politics with the with the professors and stuff like that. So I would say it's worth it if you can, if you can find someone that you can trust that has skills that you want to emulate that you want to gain. And at a price point that's affordable to you, that makes sense to you that that provides the value to you. Because the first the first mentorship programme that I had heard from what paid wise was like, upwards of 5000 a year. Yeah. And, you know, and I, it was through a podcast that she makes, and I forget, forget who it was, it was like, it was like the inspiration plays podcast that I had started listening to. But, you know, there are other issues, too, that that I stopped listening to, because they started becoming more and more pushy about their class. And then, you know, they, they, it was weird to see them navigate the whole you know, Black Lives Matter issues that have been, you know, bubbling to the surface last year. And I was like, you know, if I had $5,000 extra spare that I didn't, you know, want to save for use investing in myself later, I may have done it, but just multiple things for that it just wasn't a good fit. So, you know, really keep looking, if, if, if you can't find a good fit, you know, I really like that. And I think that mirrors very well with what Simon Sinek says about mentorships he says that a mentorship, it's a relationship that it has to be beneficial for both. So the student is learning from the mentor. But the mentor is also learning from the student. And to find that balance, find that relationship, it's very tricky. And it has to be the right combination of people. Like does that doesn't mean that the mentor is not good. It just means that maybe the student is not the right person for it. And taking your time, I totally agree that you should take your time to find the one that fits you. Right. And do you see yourself when they becoming a mentor? Yeah, if I can, like I would, I wouldn't mind being a mentor, I would, you know, I I like sharing the knowledge that I have. And I like to inspire other people to do to do what it is that makes them happy. But, you know, it's it's kind of weird because I'm back and forth. Because there's there's a saying out there there's a saying about when you get to a certain age with a certain level of wisdom, you realise that you don't have really any advice to give anyone because everyone's Everyone's story is so different and everyone takes in information so different. So I guess with that with a grain of salt, right? So as much as I would like to mentor i've i've seen in the past where sometimes I give the wrong advice. So I'm always Scared of giving the wrong advice. And, and but if I can help someone, I would definitely love to do that. Yeah, that's great. And then it comes with that. The task, it's like advice and feedback, learn how to do it properly. And what when you get when, if you were to give feedback to a student, what do you think would be your method would be that the critical feedback that builds them up or we delay, build them down to build him back up? Because there are so many styles of teaching and of reproducing and helping people develop their talents? I mean, your girlfriend was, to the point I can't throw that's not no bullshit here. She was like, yeah, you know, what? I'm gonna do you a favour. Yeah, my, I think my, my feedback would be, I would I would take the route of, yeah, starting with what's good. And then, and then going into what I know, as far as technical, technical aspects of like, construction of different, you know, illustrations or design. And then seeing if there's, you know, trying to relate that to what could improve, right. So, instead of saying, Well, I think you did this badly, and I think this is how you should do it. I'm saying this is what's good. This is what I know about this, cut this concept in design, or in illustration, and this is what I'm seeing in your work. That might be tweaked in that direction. But again, like some people have styles that some people develop new styles, some people develop new things, and it might not register in my brain, as as, as something that I like, but if I can guide people towards, towards a, towards techniques, and if they can, if they can use that if they try it out, and then improves on it, great, if they try it out, doesn't improve on it, you know, try something else, you know, so it's, it's all fluid, it's all in so now, you know, changing I love that. I love that you said that. It's all fluid. And so changing because we are humans and humans are multimodal. So when they you may like one thing, and then the next day, you may like another thing. And that way of giving feedback, I've adopted the sandwich method. Well, I didn't call it like a previous guest decided to call it the sandwich method. It's like something good, something not so good. Something good at the end. And I was in the clubhouse room the other day. And Chris doe was there. And I was asking him about feedback. What's his method? I know, he's such a nice guy, you know, you got to talk to Christo. Yeah, it's so cool. It's the second time the first one, the first one to recommend he recommended me a great book that I devoured it was amazing. And now I asked him about feedback. And he was just saying that he always tries to approach it in a friendly way. And reading the person seeing like, what their body language is how they're reacting to the feedback, and seeing how he can adapt himself to make sure that the feedback he's giving is getting to them in the purest way possible. And he even had a student once that jazz, when they approached him and said, Hey, Chris, why do you never give me feedback. And you give everybody else feedback. And he's just very honestly said, from I can read in you that you don't want feedback. You don't want it. I'm not going to push it on you if you don't want it. So I don't let's let's work on that together. But I am not going to give it if you don't want it. And sounds like that's also how you see me like you're going to give what you can, but always accept but be aware. Like if maybe they don't need that. Maybe it's not the direction in which they want to go. And they're free to say that as well. Yeah, definitely. But yeah, a clubhouse our clubhouse just like follow Chris doe and he will suddenly appear in the room and you can ask him a question is great. Yeah, I'm gonna have to do that. Because everything that's popping up on clubhouse right now is like NF T's and I'm just like, you know, you need to clean your bread, you need to clean your preferences. Clean up before you fall. It was really funny. He's such an earnest guy. And I wasn't expecting that to be honest. And in one app, in one room that I was in, so I didn't ask for the board recommendation, ask him another question. And then as an Ellie Hanson, she recommended me that book and she's in his pro group. And it was really funny because a guy the guy came before me, he was like, Oh Christ, what book should I read? And he just said that I quote him. This is when I get angry, you guys. This is what pisses me off. And I'm like, What happened? Like, if you go in the future blog, you will find a post about different books that you can read as a designer, as an artist as a business person. I know this for you. So read the frickin blog. I can have like, oh my god Christo is so basic that you feedback. Feedback. very honest. Yes, real honest, he puts a lot of work into it too. Like, like, all his content is super top notch. And? And yeah, I could definitely see that kind of reaction being like, Look, it's it's out there like just go to my site. Yeah. And talking about putting content out there and just go into the site. Where do you see creative education going? because more and more we have this patrons where people can subscribe to internships, and we have technology like we are talking right now through Riverside, and there's also YouTube. Where do you see creative education going? in the future? Do you think the university route will eventually disappear? Or do you think that there will be a combination? Or that he would allow you to choose your teachers better, like 10 years in the future? What do you see if if, like, the traditional higher education model is going to, is going to continue it has to, it has to innovate, it has to match what we can get for free, if not better, because so for me, I tech, like, I could have gone to a traditional school and just, you know, took taken out loans and gone and learned the traditional way. And part of that is like art history, and learning from the past, right, which is good. But it's all Eurocentric art, you know, it's not even considered the indigenous and the ancient historical art that here in the Americas, around the world, Africa, and otherwise, you know, groups of people that are forgotten, so not only do they have to reevaluate the way they're structured for for paying for it, they also have to reevaluate, who's teaching who they're funding to, to do the kind of research to pass on that knowledge. Because if I can go online and research the kind of art that I want to find, and, and have that influence the way that I learn art, then then it's, then it's not, then it's, that doesn't make any sense for me to go to that school. And, you know, Pete, people of colour who have tried people of colour in the US have an issue, getting to the point of, you know, tenure, and, and actually get into a place of teaching these kinds of courses, like I was at, I went to Purdue in Indiana, and I went, I took a class in Latin American Studies. And the year before it, it was structured in a way where they were teaching about more indigenous things, more revolutionary kind of things. But by the time I got in, I knew that because of a buddy that sort of took the class, but by the time I went to take the class, the school made them change it, to where it's more, it's, it's more formed around, essentially, they exclude the revolutionary things, the indigenous things and just focus on Yeah, the the mainstream, you know, essentially euro focused, like history out there. So, even though they touched on it, it wasn't as deep. So things like that, where we don't need it, we don't need them to to brainwash us anymore. If, if that's if that's their intention. You know, we, we don't need to put that's not where our funds, our hard earned dollars should be going. So if I could support a person of colour, who has a $15 membership, who is an amazing, talented artists, I'm gonna go ahead and do that. I have so many thoughts. I have so many thoughts on that. First of all, I like talking about Latin American Studies. I have another podcast, which is called inspiring leaders when I do what I do with the global School for Social leaders in Austria. And through that podcast, I learned that the first Liberator of the Americas was actually Mexico. He was a slave named Gaspard yungas. And it's funny because I lived so there's a town today in Mexico called Ganga, and I lived for four years 15 kilometres away from this town and I had no idea. I was it was history that as a Latin American person I had never learned it was never mentioned to me. And I lived with non Americans who was 18 and yeah, he was a slave that was brought from North Africa. Then he escaped liberated himself and a few others created his own bellingcat and then put up a fight like he was a night For the Spanish call for Spanish people, eventually they said, You know what? Fuck it, how can we live together? Because we can, we're losing too many people like the Spanish that he the Spanish crowd gave up. They were like, Okay, how do we do this? And because of him, there was the first time that a Spanish colony, upper Lanka, and in a native and a native tribe and the indigenous tribe actually collaborated together, they had trade, and they had birth certificates for children of mixed races and everything. And you will learn that, and I have an episode about that I have another episode about career about the Mexican Revolution, the women in the Mexican Revolution, there was actually ended up queer presentation, there are a lot of transgender transgender men who were in the middle of Mexican Revolution. And they're never spoken about. And where is that knowledge? Like? What Why are we discussing this, which makes history richer? And I totally agree that institutions need to match what we can learn for free and need to up their game. Yes, and if the if they don't do it, we have the obligation to, to not continue to either promote or, or keep funding those structures, because they're gonna, they're gonna do the same thing forever, as long as they're making good money. So if we, I mean, I say we, but it's just humans in general, as a collective. Like you saying that there was an uprising of people that's a collected, someone decided to make a movement and collectively go against an establishment. And in this case, instead of fighting against the oppressor with physically this would be with our money, you know, stop giving them your hard earned dollars? You know, I am, I am a huge fan of Stuart Williams, who is the godfather of impact economics. And he went, he has so many catchphrases that I use constantly, but one of my favourite ones is we vote with our dollars, every time you spend money or something, you're voting for something, you're helping someone. So I think you're totally right. I think that if we want to change the how design is being added how creative education works, it's looking at ourselves first and say like, why do I need What do I want? Maybe there is somebody who wants to get the fancy college degree. That's great. That's amazing. I went back to college, I did the whole university track because it was right for me. Because the university I went to was in the sense that they had a lot of stations. So if you said as a graphic designer, I want to learn how to build a chair. They're like, cool. So there's a wood station. There's a person there who will teach you how to build a chair, just go ask them. And then, yeah, you said I want to put a seat on it. And I want that seat to be silkscreen. It's like, okay, so there's a six screen station, go learn it, go, go try it out. So they, they gave me something that I couldn't get online online, I could learn that technique, in my mind, but they gave me that that tools to do it. And he was put in my tuition, which was also like, pretty accessible. So What school did you go to? I believe the clinic Academy in Rotterdam. Okay, cool. Yeah, it's really, it's not perfect. It has its flaws. But the fact that they gave me that approach that I had always heard about rice or printing, for example. But that was the first time they gave me a rifle printer, say like, here it is. And it's not. You take like one hour, an hour course, when they teach you how not to break the machine. And then it's like, Okay, so now that you know how to not break it, do whatever you want. Be free little. That's cool. But yeah, I love the takeaway that education needs to be more tailored, more flexible to each one of us. And institutions need to match what we can get for free online and ask us what we want and see how they can provide the best way possible. That's amazing. I really love this episode. It's such a fun a fun chat. So now as we get to the end, is there anything you want to plug anything you want to tell the audience about? Um, yeah, if you want to go check, check out my Instagram, time. TV, Time Machine creative. And then my website is Time Machine dash cr Link is in link is in the bio I'm always working on improving. So those people who have been following me for a minute, see, they've seen the improvements over time. But also, I'm putting out different I want to create different kinds of content in in taking action on some of the ideas that I have. So for instance, I have a podcast where I interview creatives, you know of colour, people of colour, who are creatives and, and I wanted to ask you about that actually. Yeah, and it's it's a it's a fun project for me. I'm good. I'm improved. You know, I'm slowly improving on it, I'm learning. So bear with me. But the, the idea around it is to tell stories, as opposed to give advice, which is, you know, like I talked about earlier, sometimes the sometimes you try, you know, sometimes you're not giving the right advice. So just tell the stories and see if someone can take those take that advice or otherwise get some inspiration from those people and their specific story. And it doesn't have to be necessarily a creative person who has a creative career, I want I'm going to interview one of my chemical engineering friends who's who's starting her creative journey as a as a way of as a way of relieving stress, which has been, has been a product of living in the US as an undocumented person, that that has essentially created like a type of PTSD that she still lives with, even though she's in a place of comfort now, so you know, different stories like that, then you don't hear all the time, especially in in mainstream, creative podcast is generally just someone who had the money to go to art school. And, and now they're doing art, or became viral, or became viral on social media or something like that. I love that. And I wanted to ask about your podcast, because I really enjoyed it. Oh, thanks for listening the episode a bit long, but I really enjoyed it. Um, I like that it's genuine people and people who feel reach out. I like the atmosphere. It feels like I'm sitting in that I'm sitting in a room with you guys. That's how it feels. Feels like I'm just thank you interacting with these people. I like the style of it. I like yeah, like, like I said, it feels like just you're talking. I'm just sitting in the corner, having coffee and enjoying myself. Yeah, you're totally right. That story's not being told. We don't need to listen to those type of stories. And we should. Yeah, definitely. And, yeah, it's like I said, learning. It's long, so bear with me. I'm going to anyway, check it out. If you don't mind me plugging one more thing. Yes, please, please don't please plug. So I wrote and drew a, a comic book webcomic. That's live on my site right now. So it's, it's super power. Kids who, their their their powers are rooted in, in Aztec mythology. So they they kind of get their powers from like, Aztec gods. And but they're living in today. And so they're kind of figuring out. They're trying to figure out how they got these. And it's, it's, it's going to be a process of navigating keeping that a secret, and, and then other obstacles along the way. So sounds awesome. Yeah, I'll definitely also add a link to that on the show notes so people can find it. Well, thank you so much, Josh, for your time. This has been a really fun conversation. And yeah, I hope we talk soon. We'll definitely talk soon. But yeah, I can't wait to share your story with the world. Thank you so much, man. Thank you for having me. I hope you had as much fun listen to this episode, as I had, recording it and editing it and talking to Josh, really, it was an awesome conversation. I love what he said about how universities have to compete now, with not only other universities, but also the education we can get for free, which we can tailor and target and make what we want of it. And yes, transparency is going to be key in this process. And I'm very curious to see how things will move forward. I like to think of Joshua's experience with education and becoming an illustrator, a lot like the hero's journey that Andy j pizza loves to describe in his podcast, which I will also link in the show notes, because it's pretty great of going through trials and tribulations to figure out what your path is. And what do you want to actually achieve. How do you feel about the hero's journey? Do you think do you see the parallels? What is your own hero's journey? And how has education influenced you on it? Let me know in the comments on social media. How do you what do you think about this, and let's have a conversation about how education is part of the hero's journey. Thank you, friend for joining me today in this wonderful conversation. Like always, I'm happy to be in your ears. I hope you enjoyed it, and that you picked up something from it. You'll find all the information to my guests social media, to their website to the best way to contact them in the show notes below. As well as the link to our website that has a transcript of this episode and all the episodes. Why do transcripts because many reasons, honestly, like not everybody speaks English as their first language, or their second language or their third. And a lot of people have disabilities and they might need the support. And a lot of people just don't enjoy listening to podcast, but maybe they will like to know about this conversation. So you'll find links to all that On our website, which is again in the show notes, as well as social media handles and other goodies if you wish to support the podcast in any way, just send me a DM because they make me happy. Or you can also leave us a review on your favourite podcasting platform to help me improve the show and make something even better for you. And there's also a link if you want to buy me a coffee because I love coffee and it could also help support the podcast financially. 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