Do I need school to be...

a mentor to creatives? with Chris Locke

March 03, 2022 Alex Villacís Season 1 Episode 26
Do I need school to be...
a mentor to creatives? with Chris Locke
Show Notes Transcript

Welcome to Part II of my interview with Chris Locke, co-founder of Miro Innovations. On the last episode, we talked about Chris' educational journey and his developments as a professional. In this one into the differences between design education in Latin America and in Europe. We get into it y'all! 

On this interview we spoke about:

  • The gaps we find in both educational systems
  • The benefits of having a mentor
  • Challenges of creative education
  • Where creative education will go in this post-pandemic world

Want to learn more about Chris? Here are some links:
Website of Miro Innovation
Linkedin
Instagram
The Psychology of Creative Business - Innovation Talk #19
Chris on ADP List

Chris’s recommendation is to get a mentor and to that effect he recommends ADP List where he is a mentor himself and you can get anything from feedback on your portfolio to career advice to free events.

In an effort to make this podcast accessible, we make transcripts of every episode. You’ll find the transcripts on our website here

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Alex Villacis:

But there comes a point. And this was the experience we had with this designer, where you don't need the academics, you do need the rationale behind why you're choosing a certain colour why you're having this decision why? Hello, friend. And welcome back to another episode of "joining school to be" the podcast in which we Alex is going to sit down with creatives and ask them about their journey into the creative field focusing on their education, the teachers who shaped them, the books which shaped in the movies in general what their journey was like, if you're somebody who is thinking about entering the creative field, I hope this show will be a resource to you, and show you that we all have different paths. And they are all valid. So let's go. And here we are, in part two of my interview with Chris Locke, in case you didn't listen to the last episode, and I really recommend you do before you listen to this one. Chris is an industrial designer of business owner, speaker and all around us a human being who spoke to us about his experience, going from medical school to switching to engineering, then starting combining school and work, working then in a production company, then starting his own business, keeping his old job as a client, which I think is pretty impressive. And now we are going to talk about education, but from a different perspective than we had before, because Chris has to combine experience of studying in Latin America and living in Europe and experience experiencing both sides of the Atlantic Ocean, I guess. So we are going to talk about how studying in different country can really shape you as a designer. So here's my conversation with Chris Locke. And on that topic, I want to know like, how did you see like the two education's pair up? Have you had that experience with the two?

Unknown:

Well, I think you mentioned it. And I think we mentioned it together a little bit back. It's about maturity. I think you mentioned clients don't know what they want in Latin America and cls here. I think they still don't know what they want. But they know a little bit more. There's, and I think it's what we talked about this maturity. I think the industry is at different stages of design maturity here, you know, you want UX, you know, you want behavioural design research, you know, because it's trending, it's all around you, you hear about it, you see your other companies doing it, Latin America, that that doesn't happen. And I think design education precisely is, is in the same sort of realm. They're still also a bit behind. I think they're catching up fast, especially now that through a pandemic, there's no more borders. It's catching up for just to give you an example, when I came to Spain, as I live in Madrid right now, when I left when Osiris about a year and a half ago, there was very little movement. So I'd say maybe two or three years ago, tops two years ago, there was very little talk about design sprints about sprints, and say UX design, human centred design, it was very fringy kind of design trends. So someone that was in innovation, like we were you would know about it, we knew how to do design sprints, like three or four years ago, when we read the sprint book, or the Jake Knapp book, then a chain smarts. If I wanted to sell a design sprint to client, they'd be like, what? I just have to say, like, Yeah, we're gonna do a workshop, and you're gonna like it and give you a lot of added value, but they have no idea what we were gonna offer. And it was really hard. That was actually something very interesting. We struggled a lot with clients to help them understand the strategic side to design not just like, hey, we're gonna make something because medically nice for you. But we're gonna give you this clarity on how to communicate your brand better, or your product better, or build a product that's going to communicate better with your audience. But that's a different topic. But going back to education, I think, yeah, education. The curriculum is, at least from my experience are a little behind what's trending. I think it takes time for curriculums and academics and traditional academics to get updated, they do get updated. But it's they're usually a year or two behind the country's design maturity, if that makes any sense. So I remember when I finished industrial design, there was things that I tools that I was I was using, because I was working. So in my case, I was using SolidWorks I was using Keisha I was using V Ray I was using, I was because I wanted to learn new tools, and my classmates were also none of that was taught at school. So we didn't know what tools to use from school but from experience. So I think in Latin America, you learn much more. And this was actually something that happened with one of our employees. He was one of our first employees, I think he was our third or fourth employee. And he was also studying Industrial Design and about four years, five years behind, behind when I finished. And what he started working with us while he was studying, and basically he said he would have trouble in school. And I mean with his teachers, because he was looking at his problems that his designs from our point of view, so how do we create business value? How do we create something that creates impact? What Why are we designing this like this and that like that, you know, thinking, that kind of rationale, but he was going to school and his his teachers just, you know, either were old school just think about cosmetics, or their their corrections were very subjective. Like they weren't objective on, and he would get totally frustrated, because yeah, he understands that. That's how they're teaching. They're training you on one specific thing, but he was already because of the experience he was having with us. He was ahead of that, in his his personal skills. So he's like, what he would ask questions back to teachers and challenge them. And I remember that that. So that that was like, Okay, we're definitely ahead of what what, what's happening, but that also showed how behind the schools were to what was actually happening in real life. So yeah, I think that's an interesting thing. And here in Europe. Alright. I don't know if it's just here in Europe. But I see there are a lot more Boot camps now for UX, for UI. There's a lot of online courses, and I think they're good. I've also had the experience of working with designers that are only bootcamp taught. I don't know if that's properly said someone that Yeah, yeah, some of that didn't go through the the academics of design if you want, you know, understanding the basics, colour for history, like I mentioned, you know, going through that process, and just went straight into like, I like UX UI, I'm sort of self taught, I did a bootcamp. And I think that's awesome to do that. But there comes a point. And this was the experience we had with this designer, where you do need the academics, you do need the rationale behind why you're choosing a certain colour, why you're having this decision why there's the reason that there's at least industrial design, there's basics, they teach you something that's called monje, you know, the different views of a product or an object. And of course, when we actually when I was in fourth year sitting down to design a product, I would do it in the computer on SolidWorks. And all the blueprints would come out of the computer in the first years, I had to do it manually. And I was frustrated about that. But because I did it manually. And because I also learned how to do them properly. So then the computer would throw something at me that was not proper, and I knew I was not proper. But I was just going down down the industrial side. But I think Boot Camps are good. They are Kickstarters. And they're good if you're transitioning from one discipline to another. But I this is my personal opinion. But I think the academics are there, for even if they might feel old school, they give you a base that you need to understand, you need to understand what happened in Bauhaus, you need to understand who Lugosi era was you need to understand how I know design evolved over the years, because not you're gonna come up with something like this is super innovative. And it's something that someone did. It could be innovative today, but it's something that has already been thought done. And I know Scandinavian design 3040 years ago, if you didn't have that formal education, you might not understand that you might not have that context. And putting a practical example is this designer was had a very good eye. So he was talented that he could see things and place them properly. But there was no rationale behind his decisions. Like Why'd this colour why that decision? Why is this place like this? Why is this place like that? It was just because he didn't have a proper structure to his designs or not, I don't know if the word structure but a mental structure to why what his process was, and I think academics sort of give you a process which then you can break and and twist around but you have a baseline and I think it's the same analogy that I was mentioning with our company, do the proper basics, build the foundations properly. And then once once you start growing exponentially, do whatever you want, you can just fly create a unicorn I know build a train that goes underwater, I don't know. But at the beginning, I think it's you do have it's sort of this scenario of experiment, try even if you don't like it go through the process, because it's gonna give you the toolset that you need like your toolbox as a designer. Someone that does a boot camp has part of those tools, but doesn't have others because basically that's what a boot camp is, it will just show you this this part of that And I think going back my conclusion to that big ramble was, I do see more specialists that have done only a bootcamp and have done only a specialty. And they might be really good at that little niche. But they don't have the academics. So they can't it's not easy for them to pivot if they had to, or if in the future. Now, UX design breaks up into these five different disciplines. They don't have the foundations to go like, okay, now I can just, you know, move my little piece from one side to the other. For example, I mentioned I started industrial design, I studied industrial design, I mean, but while I was working, I had to transition to graphic because I was doing a lot of graphic work. And even though I did not study graphic design, in the four years of study, I had to do all my graphic designs for my designs, my presentation, so I had a lot of the foundations of graphic design, even though I was not a graphic designer that gave me the toolset. So you know, now I have to create a graphic design. Okay, I might not have specialty in typography, or and then things that are more into our lettering or anything like that. But I didn't have the foundation enough. So I could actually go into that field. Without feeling like I'm totally new at this, if that makes sense.

Alex Villacis:

It does. It does really clean. You're the first person actually that that that addresses that. That isa Yeah, formal education. It gives you a good base. You're the first person who says that. And I think sometimes I feel very alone, because I'm somebody that chose formal education. Like I went to like, Yeah, I did occasionally have is not enough. I'm going to go and I do a second degree more pinpointed. And I'm going to use this time. And to bring it back to what you said in the beginning. I do think formal education gives you a more holistic view of everything, that it's not just the one thing that you are, because in the beginning, most programmes are very general, and then you pinpoint what you want to do. Yeah. And it allows you to pivot because if you learned, let's say, knitting, only from your own experience, you only know what you know. But then if you learn from others, then you're like, oh, wait, there's more types of needing now just the one that I do? Well, that, that you just nailed something that's also I feel is very important. I think most of these boot camps are online, or are some might be presential. But it's more of a self learning course, where like, you'll see a video, you'll practice it. And there's something about academics where you're in. I know, we had every I think it was quarter or every year or every semester, you would present your projects. And you would see what other students did and other classes and that kind of references and seeing what how someone else solved a similar problem. That enriched, enriched your own perspective a lot. Maybe you design something you're like, at that point, you're like, Wow, this is amazing. This is the best design ever. And then you'd go out to this expo, this uni Expo and you'd be like, Oh, well, my Wow, design is a three compared to that. That's like a 12. Like, how did that happen? That pushes you up. And I think if you if you just do a bootcamp, just digitally just you're very, like you have this kind of like tunnel vision of what you did. And there's a lot that's happening around that, or outside of that. For example, I remember some time back, I did a small lecture at a university here on low touch economy. And I remember, it was a one hour hour and a half lecture. It was fun talk, there was a lot of master's students. And these are, you know, kids that are already working for several years there. They're, you know, they have experience on top, no one you would, or I think one or two knew what a design sprint was very few knew about trends that were happening. I was like, how do you not know this? Like, obviously I work in this, but this is what you you have to know, like, I would get excited in the class. And I'm like, I'm just going to explain what a design sprint is to everyone else. So first, I just go through it. Because I was like this. These are like basic, I feel they're basic things today, everyone should know it, at least know what it's about. But I found most in that class of I think it was like 20 people, only one or two knew what it was not even knew how to execute or had practised. And I was like, that's very curious. So these are probably people that, you know, even they probably went through a formal education, but on one area. And that sort of this is my sort of epiphany moment right here. But I think it's probably something that happens here as well is boot camp are probably a little ahead of their time versus the traditional academics. And that's what makes boot camps so attractive. There's like this new trend. So we'll put together a new teachable course and it's online and you can start doing it from someone that is a specialties specialist in UI UX or whatever academics take much more time to get approved and to go out and you know, to have the proper. And I think it's, I would recommend a mix of both, like find something that covers enough ground in the academics part and then specialise in something, and you're gonna be much better prepared to do that than if you just go straight into boot camp. Yeah, that's great. That's great. I think like a healthy balance of both. I think that's the, that's the key. And also look at what you need as a person like what your individual needs are, maybe you need only a boot camp, maybe you need a more holistic approach. Maybe you need more, if you're the person, the person, and just like share a little story about like, I also think those moments of seeing what other people are doing are super important. I did a project in which in university in which was about changing a book, how you can use into the internet to change a book that way books can be updatable. You can update a book as well. Yeah. And somebody else did something very similar. He did it with ID tags, like putting ID tags in the book. Yeah. And then you put your phone and then the book changes, I did it with QR codes. And then you can scan and then the text changes. So you get a picture and so on. And I remember my professors were like, Yeah, but why did you do like super innovative with ID tax and so on. And I thought, okay, my idea with this, is this a printable thing, that teacher in Latin America who wants to update a book can print for their students? That's my idea. So a teacher lettermark is not going to have an access to an ID tag, or know how to programme it, it's going to be like, too, like too many steps for them. I would rather use a QR code that it's easy to scan, they can just use very quickly. And then you see, okay, everybody has a different background. They have different things in mind, they have a different way to get maybe to the scientists very similar, but for completely different audiences because of their experience. Yeah. And when you don't have that access to those peer groups, or to other people that become your teachers, you're missing out on something. I think you just hit a very interesting topic there, which is around democratising education or if you want design education, and I think I don't know universities here in Europe or in the US costs a fortune right? So like, if you go to uni, you're probably going to be in debt. I'm very lucky that I'm not much. I am the small I am the small minority of people who got lucky and are not. But yeah, it's a real problem. Like coming out of uni with $150,000 in debt is a normal thing in the US. Yeah, and Exactly. And that's crazy. And Argentina is the same thing. You can go to uni finish uni and not be in debt year and zero debt. And that's, I think that's amazing. Like being here. Now I talked to friends or colleagues and like, Yeah, I'm still paying off uni. Like, you're like 36? Like, what's happening? Like, how are you still paying for uni? So anyways, I think there's this also, I understand why Boot Camps are also so popular. Because if you're in a country, and maybe you can afford a formal education, and go through a 30,000 50,000 a year course. Yeah, of course, boot camps become something more interesting. And I understand the attractiveness of, you know, going to something like that. So I think context definitely affects that. Of course. I think there's totally another podcast topic is I think education is definitely needs to be democratised needs to be more available to everyone. And I felt more I felt it more here in Europe than I did in Latin America. But I felt that education system is a bit like a business more than actually an education system. So I've spoken with several people about this where someone that finishes uni, I don't know about Mexico, because I didn't study there. But as someone that finishes a full degree in Argentina will have similar qualifications or experience to someone that finishes a master's degree in Europe. And that's variant especially in careers like architecture, something like that. And what I started talking to people that were teachers here and that are not from here, and they mentioned, yeah, because it's set up to be a bit of a business, it's set up to instead of doing a six year course that gives you the full degree and master's they break it into an undergrad for three or four year and then post grad three or four year and then they it's all marketing so you you finish school then you have to do a master's and you have to do a PhD. And I know people friends I play soccer with which have PhDs but have almost no work experience. I that like blows my mind like how is that possible? But you if you go look for a job Everyone asks for a master's degree a PhD degree. And I think that's very, it's curious. Like, what's more? Is it because everyone is asking for a Master's that you want a master's? Or is it because you're actually interested in that experience? I don't know. It's very. I have so many thoughts about master degrees. I have so many thoughts. Because I've seen people like, oh, a good friend of mine, he graduated from BA in city planning, Plant City design. I don't know, like, the people who plan cities. It's not an architect. It's not a civil engineer. It's the people who plan cities. And then he is like, Yeah, are you gonna work afterwards? It's like, No, I'm gonna do a master's like the most natural thing. And I said, Okay, what's your master's in? And he's like, Oh, it's same thing. City design. But what? Why? So he, his girlfriend did something different. She graduated in city planning, city planning, I think that's the proper name. And then she did a master's in affordable housing. So it's, that makes sense to me. So you do a BA and then you do a master's, something more specialised and more pinpoints. Again, you get the general view first. And then you specialise in something. But even if she doesn't work in affordable houses, she can still have the rest. Yeah, but and I asked him, they said, What, but when you think the Masters, what did you do? He said up basically the same, just the same thing. So that's weird. That's a weird setup that I see be like, I mean, we're in like creative, educational, creative businesses, or whatever. It should be, like, more. Not it has to be handled like a business, I see what it's like a business. But there's a way to making a building a business. It's also profitable for the student and profitable for the person. And then there's also this gigantic thing, like when you go to go to work in an agency, oh, I want you to have a master's degree. Why? Yeah. Why? You need to know first what I know, you don't know what I know. Hey, friend, it's Alex just interrupting this conversation to remind you that in order to have the optimal experience, and enjoy all the links in the show notes, you can subscribe to the show on any platform you're using to listen to this podcast. And yeah, it supports the show, he will improve the algorithm for you. So he would show you more shows like this one you will potentially like, and if you wish to support the show, you can follow us on social media. All the links are in the show notes as well as a link to buy me a coffee, which Yeah, will help pay for the hosting. And I also love coffee. But enough my babble, let's get back to the show.

Unknown:

Yeah, it's an MBA, I'd say okay, and you're a designer. I like that's a very interesting mix. Like you studied some kind of design. And then you have a master's in business administration and like, wow, you have these two worlds. That sounds very interesting. Or you do something like you mentioned that complements it or that gives you skills that you might have not studied in school. I'm into that. But also, when I mentioned that democratising design, I think back. I don't know if I mentioned this, but last year, I also joined ADP lists, mentoring platform. And over the last year or not, over last year, this 2020. I mentored I think it was something like 50 or 40, 50 mentees, and these were designers. I had a lot of time there was a pandemic going on, right? Yeah.

Alex Villacis:

I was like, how are you running a business? Amenti in 40 people? Oh, wait, there was a pandemic? Yeah, I was like, stuck at home. And I need to like connect with people. So I was like, Yeah, let's do this mentee thing, when it started was just this Excel sheet. And then you know, people started joining. It's awesome project. I really like what they're doing. But basically what I learned a lot from that, what I'm telling you now about these different design materials. I learned a lot about that when during that period, because I was suddenly connecting to a designer in Mexico, a designer in the US a designer in Africa, designer in India, designer in Australia, Germany. And the profiles were so different. So I started understanding how the needs were different to each different area and profile. And that you just reminded me of that when we talked about boot camp boot camp. bootstraps. I was gonna say but boot camps for design. Bootstrapping your business. Yeah. Awesome. boot camps in design, where there's one one of my one of the mentees, I had there was actually a couple were from India and Africa, and actually Thailand as well. I remember. And these were people that you know, did not have a formal education, couldn't formal education in university education. I mean, they could probably not afford a university education in one of these, you know, in Europe in the US or in a country where that their academics are enough, developed enough so that when they finish they can get a job, and they're not studying, you know, something prehistoric. And this was a challenge that This person would tell me it was like, Yeah, I wanted to go to school. But you know, in school, they're teaching me things that are. Imagine if we're saying Latin America is 10 years, we're probably talking about, like 12 years behind. And they don't have the UX or UI that I want to study. So I'm doing a bootcamp. I was like, wow, I understand where he is. This is someone where he wants to study this, this he knows because internet, right. So you know what's happening, you want to study it, but you don't have access to it, you can't, he's not going to move to Europe to study, he's not going to move to the US to study. So he's sort of self taught. And I've seen him evolve over the last year and a half. And I think, if you're in that kind of, or at least this specific case, since he has his resilience and his tenacity, he's like, I want to learn it, I want to learn it. He does one boot camp, and he does another boot camp, and he does another boot camp, and he does another and he's practising, and he's learning. So this is kind of the the B side to what I mentioned earlier. Yeah, probably he probably doesn't have the formal, traditional academics. But he's connected enough boot camps if you want enough different variety of courses to sort of balance that out. And I think I hadn't thought about this example before. But that example, has a similar sort of variety to what you would have in a traditional education. And I think that's maybe the key to book bootcamping, where you're not just doing one course, and I'm now I'm the best UI designer, ever. No. You still have years of experience to go. Yeah, yeah. But in the case of this person that sounds like they're designing their own education, that they're looking at what they want to do, and they're putting it, essentially, they're putting their own syllabus together. Exactly. Which is, depending how good they are at, you know, connecting those dots, that it'll be better or worse, and I think there's a business idea. Don't say it. But yeah, definitely, that's something that like, what if you could put together different courses have different curriculums and get the best and have this sort of democratised education available and accessible to everyone? And I think what platforms like design buddies or ADP list does is since they're, I think, design Buddies is free. I'm not sure but ATP list is free. You talk to people that are years ahead of you. And they'll go like if you talk to me, I starting UI designer, UX designer that's like how can I stand out in business and get a job, I'm gonna tell you, from my experience, you need to have be multi Designer view, like, understand a bit about business, understand a bit about users understand how know you like finances, understand finances, because those are the tools that are gonna make you stand out in the industry. And there's another mentee that I'm thinking about now. She was a chemical engineer. So very interesting programme. So she did a traditional academics of I don't know how many years that is, that's probably like six years of chemical engineering. She worked for a big pharmaceutical company. But she was interested in transitioning to UX. And when we started talking, she's like, I don't know how to do that transition. And in her case, yeah, it was dual boot camp, don't go again, through a traditional because she already had a certain base. But what I helped her sort of focus or find was, find your niche. She knows loads about engineering, about chemistry, about, you know, what she's been doing for the last 10 years, or six years or eight years, I remember the number. That's an industry that has very little UX UI, and people don't think about, oh, I want to be a UI designer. So I can work in the pharmaceutical industry with chemical engineers, like how would I and I have more than 10 years experience? How would I host a facilitate a workshop for a chemical engineering company where I'm not going to understand what they're talking about, even with my three years of med school, like, that's your niche, like, you can go into a company that is probably old school that needs to innovate, that needs to, you know, work on their processes, and connect with them in a way that no other designers will be able to. I'm like, that's what you need to understand. And that's where you need to tack and that's what she's doing now. So that's, that's pretty sweet. But that's what I think it's all about I think, I don't know, you did three years of med school and then you study design. Maybe I should have looked for you know, something in that would help that like design products for for hospitality, hospital hospitality, or, you know, there's a bunch of areas but I think you need to just know, she was very word of like, How can I do what everyone else is doing? And I think the thing has to be how can I do what's more in line with me, rather than what everyone else is doing? That is amazing, and a great way to finish this episode. I think it Yes, it's so pure. That leather, we're at the end, I would like to ask, is there anything that you can recommend a young designer or person that's pivoting or personal transitioning? Is there any books, movies courses, you can recommend your own business, you can recommend yourself to,

Unknown:

yeah, I would say the single thing that you can do that will help bootstrap your career, or will help you get that that kind of orientation or build your self curriculum or whatever, get a mentor. Even if it's on a platform, like 80 pillars that will give you 30 minutes free or whatever. But find someone that you can use as an accountability buddy that will guide you that will, you know, even if it's just a little like, go this way, go that way. Take a look at this find. And I'm not saying just one mentor, find people that are where you want to be in 5-10 years and try to be as close to them as possible, collaborate, participate part, I think that's what's the best tip that can get you accelerate your career more than reading a book more than taking a certain course. I think it's all about, you know, building that those relationships. And I think the 2000s were, was it the two decades of customer centric design, customer centric, everything? I think we're in the 2020s are, it's the decade or the two decades we want of relationship centric experiences. And I think especially now pandemic remote, build relationships, don't just go out and like, Hey, can you look at my portfolio, build, try to create, like you would in a bar or like with a real person, because you're actually talking to a real person, create relationships with your clients, with your peers, with people that you look up to? Because that's what's gonna help trigger you and help push you up. Does that make sense? With your answer? I did. I

Alex Villacis:

No it does. It's perfect. And I will definitely list ADP in the show notes. So you will have access to that. And I will look for a couple more resources in finding a mentor and helping people because yeah, that's super valuable. Thank you so much. This is a really great time.

Unknown:

Thank you, Alejandra. I was calling you Alex in the beginning. But Alexandra,

Alex Villacis:

both are fine. Both are fine. Okay. And we made it to the end of our first two part episode. How did that go? They do like it. I personally like it. I like shorter form of podcasts. So trying to stick under 45 minutes, and lately has been really hard. So dividing this episode into two parts, I think was definitely the right, the right choice. Because we got to go deep into two different sides of education, like really going into a formal education, like how formal education can change depending on where you are. And on the first part, we talk about the importance of formal education and practice together. So I think they're so super insightful. I really hope you will take Chris's advice and try to find a mentor. I mean, there's so many ways to do it. If you go back to my episode with Josh Loida. He actually has a mentor that he found on Patreon. And everybody has had somebody that has shaped them in a different way. If you go back to academies episode, which was two weeks ago, she speaks about how her mentor helped her really find her path. And just by suggesting, have you thought about this, so there's really a lot of value and I will link Chris's profile on ADP in case you want to check him out. That's you'll find that in the bio as well as all his social medias, links to mirror innovations, and to his initiative of innovation talks, which is done with Claudia Meyer, who is a coach for creatives. And they talk about really interesting things, they always have a guest it's it's really, it's a live podcast. It's honestly a really cool conversation. And if you like these two episodes, you will love that as well. So I will link that in the bio as well. And as we come to the end of the show, I want to thank you for joining me on another episode and give me your time. I hope you're enjoying this conversations and please subscribe to the show and give us a review or give us any feedback you can reach out to us on social media as well. All the links are in the show notes. To let us know if you have questions you would like to ask creatives. What would you like to learn? If you have somebody to recommend please let us know I am here to make something great for you. That said again, thank you and hope to be again in your ears next week. Keep learning and stay curious. Bye